Gold balancing issues

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I'm curious to know if people are finding their game well balanced particularly regarding science/culture/espionage/gold. I'm asking because I'm playing a MP game with my wife and we both have never lowered research rate under 100% in the entire game until now (25% of the total turns) and we still get from +80 to +400 gold per turn. I don't think we're running our empires incredibly well because we both are on the lowest positions in the score list; and I see other empires are also gaining a LOT of gold per turn. The problem is that this thing makes useless any effort on science vs gold balancing which on the contrary should be normal in every civ game. I never have to adjust anything, I simply keep my research rate at max and I still earn a lot of gold per turn. Is it happening to me only? Or is it normal in every game with C2C?

 

[Koshling]

I'm curious to know if people are finding their game well balanced particularly regarding science/culture/espionage/gold. I'm asking because I'm playing a MP game with my wife and we both have never lowered research rate under 100% in the entire game until now (25% of the total turns) and we still get from +80 to +400 gold per turn. I don't think we're running our empires incredibly well because we both are on the lowest positions in the score list; and I see other empires are also gaining a LOT of gold per turn. The problem is that this thing makes useless any effort on science vs gold balancing which on the contrary should be normal in every civ game. I never have to adjust anything, I simply keep my research rate at max and I still earn a lot of gold per turn. Is it happening to me only? Or is it normal in every game with C2C?

Yes, this is normal. It's a lot better than it used to be. I now find I can only JUST maintain 100% research throughout the game (at least up to modern), whereas it used to be easy. Personally I'd be in favor of making gold a bit less prevalent (or costs a bit higher) sainc I think the 'normal' state for a game should be one in which you actull have to make a research trade-off.

 

[BlueGenie]

Agreeing with you both on this one. The only balancing I'm forced to make is how much income of gold to have each turn or how many more troops I can add to an already decently sized army.

Costs should be a bit higher in my opinion, especially or at least city maintenance costs, but also military troop costs (though animals and other defend only troops should possibly be exempt from this).

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Yes, this is normal. It's a lot better than it used to be. I now find I can only JUST maintain 100% research throughout the game (at least up to modern), whereas it used to be easy. Personally I'd be in favor of making gold a bit less prevalent (or costs a bit higher) sainc I think the 'normal' state for a game should be one in which you actull have to make a research trade-off.

Mmmm... thanks Koshling but then IMHO gold is way too overpowered... i can buy lot of things and I never have to slow down my research rate which simply doesn't seem right (to me, at least). Luckily there are a lot of buildings/units/etc to buy so there's plenty of ways to spend all this gold; but it looks strange anyway that you simply can't have financial problems...

 

[Nevets_]

I think more buildings should give you a - or -% instead of +% Maintenance or -. The Colosseum, for example, was built to entertain plebs who didn't have a job anyway, (mostly to give them something to do beside complain about the lack of work or start rioting) so it should reduce money rather than hammers. During Classical - Middle ages maintenance costs are nothing, it isn't until you get guilds / corporations that they start costing real money.

Either that, or scale maintenance costs to fit with C2C. Increase distance to capital and number of cities by 300%, but make the primitive government & power civics reduce maintenance, and the advanced ones increase it. The 1st few government civics already limit expansion anyway, and as governments get more complex with added layers of bureaucracy to let them manage a larger empire, it makes sense they'd get less efficient too.

Personally, I'd get rid of all maintenance modifiers from buildings, they get ridiculous in the late game. Just do everything with - or -%. +10% from a graveyard in 1000 BC is 1/2 , in 1900 AD it's 1.5 , in 1905 you found Mining INC and suddenly the graveyard costs you 100 ?

 

[JosEPh_II]

This is where gameplay strategies differ, especially in the Use of:City Limits vs No City Limits, Rev vs No Rev.

I don't use City Limits or REV. I can most of the time but not all of the time run at 100% in the Prehistoric era. Once I get out of that Era the % Gold to science changes, By Medieval Era when Espionage becomes available I have to drop to 80-90% for science and 5-10% for Esp. When Culture really kicks in a bit later I have to drop % to Science to 60-70%, Esp @10%, and Culture usually @20% (to keep Anger under control). The only way I can keep from dropping lower is by the # of merchants, Nobles, Artists, and Priests I have as Specialist in my Major cities.

If I'm forced or go into War these %s change even more because of the War Weariness factors built into the top 3 Gov't Civics (my top 3 anyways: Republic, Democracy, and Federal). I have to boost Culture % to be able to wage or defend in a War. Or else mu Empire drowns in Angry citizens (again I'm Not using REV).

The Gold in my treasuring can be used up very fast in upgrading units or trying to Buy a tech from an AI. If you take my surplus away I get overran and eliminated by Modern Era.

I play on Noble level for testing purposes. I'm on the same level as the AI.

There a a host of other reasons, conditions, and questions that can be used here too. Example: you never have to have your Culture setting above 0%? Or your Espionage above 0%? You never have angry citizens or spies stealing or destroying from you?

Also you may have mastered Hydro's new housing scheme. Cause if you use it wrong it will snatch Gold from your treasury each time you Don't upgrade a dwelling.

I've said all that to make this point, you Need to have a surplus of Gold in your treasury if you play the way I do. Just because you don't play like me and I don't play like you, you need to consider that yours is not "the" way to play for me, but is "the" way to play for you.

It's only strange to not have financial problems in your style of play.

JosEPh

 

[Nevets_]

I play on Prince and usually by the Classical Era I'm 20+ techs ahead on the AI, so I reduce Science spending because at 100% I discover new techs faster than I can build the new units / buildings. If you don't build the crime buildings you don't have to put any points into espionage unless you want to, the AI loves those buildings and has an almost flat espionage curve due to them always building them and never building the punishment buildings since they can't stomach the -. And if you adopt Patrician you will never have gold problems. +1 / specialist, +2 from merchants. With the town hall buildings / boatyards / big cities that gets you alot more gold per turn.

The thing is, if you afford to stay at 100% science for the whole game then it needs to be looked at. 100% on any slider should be a temporary thing.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I find that in the prehistoric era I often have to drop my science rate to 50% or less just to support the animal units I capture. Ancient and later the only reason to drop my science below 100% is for espionage. Once I get to Industrial and latter I can't maintain the income stream and have to drop science % but as mentioned by then I need to drop the science rate because I am getting a tech every 5 turns or so. Which is way too fast.

If you remove the support cost for animals I would never have any problems.

 

[BlueGenie]

I play on Deity but I do have to admit that so far I've not run past Industrial Age and have only in all my games had a Guild once, and no Corporation. I'll keep quiet about how it is when reaching the later ages and getting several corporations.
For Prehistoric up to Medieval though, during that time if I'm not at 100% Science all the time it's because of a surplus of animals I've wanted to keep (and I don't keep all by a far cry). Maybe that part should be looked at first for balancing the game, and later ages taken into consideration when the first changes show what happens next because of said changes. (tired, if I don't make much sense I blame my daughters for being up way too early...).

Cheers

 

[strategyonly]

I find that in the prehistoric era I often have to drop my science rate to 50% or less just to support the animal units I capture. Ancient and later the only reason to drop my science below 100% is for espionage. Once I get to Industrial and latter I can't maintain the income stream and have to drop science % but as mentioned by then I need to drop the science rate because I am getting a tech every 5 turns or so. Which is way too fast.

If you remove the support cost for animals I would never have any problems.

I must be playing very badly then, cause i cant even get Close to 100% after Ancient Era. From then on it goes down, down, down, till sometimes i am only at 5-10%

I play on Deity but I do have to admit that so far I've not run past Industrial Age and have only in all my games had a Guild once, and no Corporation.
For Prehistoric up to Medieval though, during that time if I'm not at 100% Science all the time it's because of a surplus of animals I've wanted to keep (and I don't keep all by a far cry). Maybe that part should be looked at first for balancing the game, and later ages taken into consideration when the first changes show what happens next because of said changes. (tired, if I don't make much sense I blame my daughters for being up way too early...).Cheers

Sure, blame it on the "kids."

 

[EldrinFal]

Gold has been free-flowing for some time now. Other than the very beginning where too many animals can force the lowered Science, once the building bonuses and trade and large populations start to stack up, so do the coins.

It may be that a lot of those smaller buildings that tend to give +1 and +1 can perhaps be just +1 Or instead of a full +1 it can be a fraction of that amount.

I think one of the Markets (Supermarket maybe) gives like +30% which I've always thought was way too much.

Just curious-- and maybe DH or Koshling can answer this-- is it possible to add more of the top-left % ratings thingies? So in addition to Science, Espionage, and Culture, there could be a one as well?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Just curious-- and maybe DH or Koshling can answer this-- is it possible to add more of the top-left % ratings thingies? So in addition to Science, Espionage, and Culture, there could be a one as well?

Of course it is possible, but I don't know how difficult or complex it may be.

 

[Koshling]

Gold has been free-flowing for some time now. Other than the very beginning where too many animals can force the lowered Science, once the building bonuses and trade and large populations start to stack up, so do the coins.

It may be that a lot of those smaller buildings that tend to give +1 and +1 can perhaps be just +1 Or instead of a full +1 it can be a fraction of that amount.

I think one of the Markets (Supermarket maybe) gives like +30% which I've always thought was way too much.

Just curious-- and maybe DH or Koshling can answer this-- is it possible to add more of the top-left % ratings thingies? So in addition to Science, Espionage, and Culture, there could be a one as well?

You mean the sliders? What would a production one do?

On the gold thing two obserations (from my games):

• In prehistoric I typically destroy my subdued animals unless they can immediately build; or I'm about to found another city; or they are herd-producers which I always hold onto
• In industrial once you get corporations the gold picture chnages radically - that's when it starts getting hard to maintain 100% research

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Well, in my current game I have no reason to change my science rate (which is 100%). I'm not interested and I don't need culture, and I don't need espionage either since I've never used it in this game (always 0%) but I can see inside almost every city in every other nation... So this is another reason to think there's something not working properly. On a different subject, I've got weird trading offers from AI: a couple of times it offered me more than 1000 golds to get a worker in exchange (I gave them the worker and bought a new one for little more than 200 gold, I think).

 

[Hydromancerx]

This issue has already been brought up here. The issue is slowly being dealt with. Thunderbrd was suppose to do a bunch of stuff to fix it but has since disappeared.

So I am slowly adding more buildings that add more -. However it seems that every time I do people refuse to build those building.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This issue has already been brought up here. The issue is slowly being dealt with. Thunderbrd was suppose to do a bunch of stuff to fix it but has since disappeared.

So I am slowly adding more buildings that add more -. However it seems that every time I do people refuse to build those building.

I was wondering about some of the buildings that provide + and +. It is possible to have the gold part obsolete before the building does. The represents real wealth in the ancient era but as you progress the wealth aspect should decrease. I am not sure about all of it an example may be the "Hunter's Camp", I can't remember when it goes obsolete/is replaced but perhaps the gold part could reduce at trade or something similar.

I am about to revamp all the herd buildings to have them evolve throughout the game. For example the deer herd will provide +1 , +1 and +1 to start with +2 at tool making and -3 at iron working to represent the usefulness of antlers as picks which are eventually replaced by metal picks. The food and gold will also change but not as dramatically.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well, in my current game I have no reason to change my science rate (which is 100%). I'm not interested and I don't need culture, and I don't need espionage either since I've never used it in this game (always 0%) but I can see inside almost every city in every other nation... So this is another reason to think there's something not working properly. On a different subject, I've got weird trading offers from AI: a couple of times it offered me more than 1000 golds to get a worker in exchange (I gave them the worker and bought a new one for little more than 200 gold, I think).

(Red highlight) So you don't play with Cultural victory checked? You use mastery only?

(green highlight) How do you do this? Trading Embassy is only supposed to see into capitals.
Here's one of the problems:

Nevets wrote:If you don't build the crime buildings you don't have to put any points into espionage unless you want to, the AI loves those buildings and has an almost flat espionage curve due to them always building them and never building the punishment buildings since they can't stomach the -.

DH wrote:If you remove the support cost for animals I would never have any problems.

Again this is a map preference and game speed symptom because not everyone has too many animals.

If you can play the game without having to pay Any attention to Culture and Espionage sliders, then yes something is wrong but it's not the Gold in your treasury.

Blanket statements do not expose the true problems. Details why help find the solutions. And way too many times "Blanket" statements (gold is broken, etc.) are used here and in other Mods to voice dissatisfaction. I've been guilty too, but we need details to figure out what the real problem is and where it lays.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

(green highlight) How do you do this? Trading Embassy is only supposed to see into capitals.

Religion can also let you partly see into any city. If you have the shrine and they have the religion then you can see the basic information - where the city is, its population, what religions are in the city and the 9 squares around it - sometimes more plots but with fog of war.

Passive espionage will let you see what they are currently producing in visible if you have enough points.

Having a spy in the city and enough points can let you see what is happening in the city at no cost, sometimes.

 

[JosEPh_II]

But the problem is 45* never bothers with spies (according to his statements), Nor does he sped any money on the ESP slider. Is 45* Not telling the whole story? That he builds lots of spies for his own cities? Building all the +ESP buildings? What? Again it's a lack of detail. And you can not build a mod off of blanket statements.

I do agree that balancing needs to be more up front in this Mod right now than new features and new buildings, etc,. But you have to know the circumstances/details to make an Informed decision and to know Where the problem actually lies.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

But the problem is 45* never bothers with spies (according to his statements), Nor does he sped any money on the ESP slider. Is 45* Not telling the whole story? That he builds lots of spies for his own cities? Building all the +ESP buildings? What? Again it's a lack of detail. And you can not build a mod off of blanket statements.

I do agree that balancing needs to be more up front in this Mod right now than new features and new buildings, etc,. But you have to know the circumstances/details to make an Informed decision and to know Where the problem actually lies.

JosEPh

I never use espionage or cultural sliders either. I do build cultural emphasis buildings, and generally I find that doing that suffices without shifting the culture slider up. On espionage again, I build a lot of the buldings and I try to station a spy in every city, but have never felt the need to actively invest in espionage in respect of the slider.