Gold balancing issues

[JosEPh_II]

@BG,
I have seen the AI spread it's religions, just as I've seen an AI found almost all the religions in a game. (Couple versions back SO was having fits because of this)

If you have Limited as a game option you won't see the AI spread anything but it's state and that Only if it uses State. But if you use the Standard BtS way with the BUG Multiple Religion Option On they do and will. As for spreading every religion, I can't say that. But every Religion it founded it was spreading. The AI does know the values of spreading religion.

One thing comes to mind, do you use Mastery Victory condition? If you do this does cut down on AI religion founding/spreading. I don't use it any more for testing or regular play. I feel the AI can't seem to handle it. I do use Religious as one of my Victory Conditions.

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

You mean the AI goes for getting points for Religious Conditions with Mastery? Could well be that that limits it's spreading of multiple religions. For me that's alright as I also limit my spread of multiple religions (running Limited Religions anyway with a bunch of them disabled completely). Any that spread to my cities before I have had time to spread my State there I mostly ignore, might build a Monastery there, but not spread it any further on my own.
Sometimes I wait with spreading my own so I get a chance to get an extra Monastery in a city though, just for fun.

And yes, I'm testing out Mastery but with the Mercy Rule active just in case someone runs away from the rest. Wasn't that happy about it from the beginning but it might be growing on me. Well, except that it means having to run the full course of the game to get to a Victory Screen.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

You mean the AI goes for getting points for Religious Conditions with Mastery?

Don't think I said or implied that? But...

My understanding of Mastery is that there are Goals for Every victory condition and they ALL have to be met to get it. But even Afforess who developed it, iirc, towards the end of AND 1.75 was seeing that the AI was struggling to handle it. With Koshlings AI tweakings maybe the AI is doing a better job with Mastery? I've just found that for me it's to stifling to use. It Was the rage though back in AND 1.73.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Don't think I said or implied that? But...

My understanding of Mastery is that there are Goals for Every victory condition and they ALL have to be met to get it. But even Afforess who developed it, iirc, towards the end of AND 1.75 was seeing that the AI was struggling to handle it. With Koshlings AI tweakings maybe the AI is doing a better job with Mastery? I've just found that for me it's to stifling to use. It Was the rage though back in AND 1.73.

JosEPh

I must admit I tend to turn off basically all victory conditions because I'm not actually trying to 'win' in victory condiiton trms, so much as simply reach the very late game!

 

[BlueGenie]

Hmm. As far as I understand Mastery it's not necessary to score points in all conditions, you just get certain points counted towards winning depending on if you were first to a goal, or reached the goal later, and at the End of Time all Civs total scores were listed and the highest points won the game.
I might be mistaken though. And anyway it's near impossible, if not actually so, to get points towards Religious Victory, and more so to WIN a Religious Victory. Might be an idea to give that victory condition an overhaul, like counting not just State Religion but # of Holy Cities owned, Cathedrals and Religious Wonders from any religions built, and more.

Come to think of it Inquisitions after forcing a bunch of AI's to switch you my religion might do it... though going for that would also mean lower research due to fewer Monasteries... *grin* Catch 22...

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

You can still get a "regular" Religious Victory (by not using Mastery of course). Several versions back if I had not invaded and started conquering Isabel's cities she would have pulled one off in that game. She sent hordes of scribes all over the map planting her religion where she could and it almost worked. I don't remember which screen it is, I think its the Religion one, there are %s for each religions spread. I forget what % it takes off the top of my head but she was very close.

Last game I had a neighbor sending missionaries everywhere too. But I used my assassin to take out everyone of them that entered my empire. We used to think that when the AI was sending and building Mass numbers of Missionaries that it was a "bug". But we soon discovered it was attempting a Religious Victory. I think Koshling pointed that out back in version 14 or 15. As the AI was also going for Cultural wins and making 4-6 cities and building them all to Legendary status. This was when City Limits was 1st put into C2C.

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

80%. Basically NO other religion has to have been spread much, if at all, for that to happen. Was easier when there were only a few religions. The more Religions there are the less the chance gets, especially with Multiple Religion Spread active. A Human Player with big cities and another religion will easily stop an AI Religious Victory simply by spreading ones own religion in ones own cities. Usually enough, if not just spread it to some of the largest cities so their pop gets split between two religions.
Cultural Win I've seen the AI go for. That's more difficult to stop, indeed. Conquest and taking out one or two of those cities is basically all one can do to stop it.
The comment on City Limits I'm wondering about, just an observation or does that have anything to do with going for a Cultural Win?

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

So maybe for Religious Victory, to help the AI along, the 80% should be lowered?

Or see if DH, Koshling, or AIAndy can change the AI weighting to push the AI towards attempting a Religious victory?

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

So maybe for Religious Victory, to help the AI along, the 80% should be lowered?

Or see if DH, Koshling, or AIAndy can change the AI weighting to push the AI towards attempting a Religious victory?

JosEPh

The AI never attempts a religious victory and has no code to do so with. It only actively attempts conquest, cultural, spaceship, and diplomatic.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Huh?

Then why is there a Religious Victory setting at game set up?

I believe vanilla BtS had/has it.

Was it removed when Mastery was invented?

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Huh?

Then why is there a Religious Victory setting at game set up?

I believe vanilla BtS had/has it.

Was it removed when Mastery was invented?

JosEPh

The AI never strove for it in Vanilla either. It **DOES** try to spread its religion but it never evaluates whether it's anywherenear a religious victory and put more effort that way than it ordinarilly would. Doesn't mean it can't win a religious victory, but if it does it's essentially by accident.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Bummer, all this time I thought Firaxis had put some effort into alternative Victorys.

So there are really only 4 Victorys that are actually worked by the AI out of all that list. Begs the question: why bother putting them in if the AI isn't gonna try?

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Bummer, all this time I thought Firaxis had put some effort into alternative Victorys.

So there are really only 4 Victorys that are actually worked by the AI out of all that list. Begs the question: why bother putting them in if the AI isn't gonna try?

JosEPh

Because you can still play multilayer. Thus your opponent is not always an AI.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ah! I suppose buried somewhere is documentation for all this provided by Firaxis. Just how deep to dig it out <shrugs>?

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Ah! I suppose buried somewhere is documentation for all this provided by Firaxis. Just how deep to dig it out <shrugs>?

JosEPh

Naivety or sarcasm? Sometimes hard to tell

 

[JosEPh_II]

Naivety in that I didn't think about Multiplayer, Sarcasm because yeah it's probably in the civopedia somewhere and if it isn't, c'mon Firaxis don't leave me with something a single player can't really use.

So a mix of both, which makes it even harder to discern.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I believe Religious Victory conditions were ported into the mod from the Gods of Old Mod in original BtS. Most likely, there were AI considerations for winning that condition in the Gods of Old programming (which I've looked at and appears to be almost entirely written in Python) but weren't added into their concepts in this mod when Religious Victory was added. It wasn't a core Vanilla victory condition and I don't think it was even a part of the basic BtS so that side of things was easily overlooked I think. I'm not sure at what point this Victory was brought in, if on RevDCM, AND etc...