GOTM 177 Spoiler

[grigor]

10-turn goal: 3 more cities. Corporation. INC. Adam Smith. SoL and Fundy? SSC size 23.

640 Karakorum builds Leonardos. Kerman (16). Buy some warriors.
660 Hut: Naples (17)
680 Guns => Expl.
700* Konigsberg Beads route established.Karakorum Beads to Seville (d, 536). Hut: nomads.
720 Zulus: give Guns, get maps, ask for withdraw: WAR. Expl = Nav. Karakorum Bank. Trade routes to Karakorum: Aleppo (u, 35g) Ormuz (25g) Khorasan (u, 38g)
760 Spanish: Peace. Nishapur Coal to Karakorum (d, 75)
780* Spanish sneak attack. Musket fends off Ellie. Karakorum builds Adam Smith. (postscript: this was incredibly useful) Karakoram maxed at size 23. Shangtu gems to Karakorum (u, 126). Hut Tribe – I didn’t actually want that…

800 Nav => Phys. Kazan Beads to Karakorum (u, 48)
Status: 800Ad
18C. gov: Demo. MPE, Coll, HG, Copes, Shakes, Leo, Adam Smith, res Phys
6 Eng, 18 muskets, 1 horse, 6 Crooks, 6 Caravel, 1 dip, 6 vans
Trade Routes: 12D, 6F

Plan: Phys, Magnetism. Aqueducts. Grow. RR, Darwin., Corp.
Engineers and improve around all cities.
Complete infrastructure.
Judidious trade routes ;
Conquer some wonders? Pyramids in Berlin. Oracle in Thermop.

820 Phys => Atom Theo (no Magnets…should have traded with somebody for AC or Masonry)
900 Atom Theo => Magnets.
920 Karakorum Wine to Toledo (d, 650)
940 * Magnets => Steam Eng.
960 Karakorum Salt to Washington (d, 296)
980 Zulus develop Metallurgy. We can trade!. Steam => RR
1000 Tabriz Wine to Seville (d, 295) Karakorum builds INC.

Status 1000AD:
18C, gov: Demo. 41 techs res RR. HG, Colossus, MPE, MC, Copes, Shakes, Leo, INC, Adam Smith
9 Eng, 16 Muskets, 1 horse, 6 crooks, 6 Galleon, 1 dip, 7 vans

1020* RR cancels HG. => Ind. Bokhara Gems to Toledo (d, 280)

 

[grigor]

1020* RR cancels HG. => Ind. Bokhara Gems to Toledo (d, 280)
1040 Trade RR, Physics to Zulus for peace, Metallurgy.
1060 Ind => Corp
1120 Corp => Electricity. Karakorum Beads to Isandhlwana (d, 516)
1140 Elect => Refrig. Quinsay Hides to Berlin (d, 124)
1160 Karakorum builds Magellan. Zulus switch to Darwin.
1180 Refrig => Steel. Karakorum Gems to Saragossa (d, 888)
1200 Steel => Gen Eng. Karakorum gold to Madrid (d, 846)

Status 1200 AD: 18C, gov: Demo. 48 techs res Gen Eng
HG, Colossus, MPE, MC, Copes, Shakes, Leo, INC, Adam Smith, Magellan
10 Eng, 16 Muskets, 1 horse, 6 crooks, 6 Galleon, 1 dip, 8 vans
Trade: 16D, 10F

Plan: Darwin in 2 turns. Complete infrastructure (Temple, MP, Lib, Aqueduct, Harbor)
All infra: 4
Need Lib: 4
Need 2 builds: 3
Need 3 builds: 6

1220 Gen Eng => Refining taxes to max.
1240 Greeks complete Sun Tzu. Darwin: Refining, Conscr=> Combustion
1280 Combustion => Auto. Karakorum beads to Saragossa (d, 592) Kabul Wine to Cordoba (d, 285)

1300 Auto => Fundy
1320 Karakorum Hides to Cardiff (d, 350)
1340 Fundy => Mass Prod. Karakorum Gold to Cordoba (d, 1130). That was fun1
1360 Mass Prod = Electronics
1380 Trade with Greeks for Chivalry, map.
1400 Electronics => leadership. Basra Hides to Marathon (d, 236)

Status 1400AD
18C; gov: Demo; 57 techs res Leadership
11 Eng, 16 Muskets, 1 horse, 6 crooks, 6 Galleon, 1 dip, 9 vans
Trade: 24D, 10F
Infrastructure report:
All infra: 8
Need 1 build: 4
Need 2 builds: 4
Need 3 builds: 1

Push to 80 techs continues. We got 9 techs in the last 10-turn cycle.
Karakorum is blocked a lot, and needs a transit system. We will need sewers in many cities! Coliseums?

1420 Leadership =>Tactics. Ormuz Oil to Karakorum (d, 161)
1440 Karakorum Salt to Kells (d, 288)
1460 Tactics => Machine tools
1500 Machine tools => Flight. Cadiz razed: Masonry.

1510 Flight => Min
1520 hut: Cremona - a size 3 Tribe (20). Barb leader captured. Bribe Barb Dragoon and kill another barb, becoming vet.
1530 Min =>Radio
set lots of cities to offshore platforms. Lux down to to 30.

1540 Karakorum Hides to Gortyn (d, 552) Aleppo Gold to Madrid (d, 360).
1550 Radio => Computers.
1560. Samarkand builds CfC.
1570 Computers => Adv Flight
1590 Adv Flight => recycling Khorasan Silk to Madrid (d, 280)
1600 Berlin builds SoL. Kabul Wine to Seville (d, 325).
1610 Recycl => Rockets. Karakorum Salt to Marathon (d, 696)
1620 Basra builds SETI. I don't think it helped. Rocketry => Space Flight. Karakorum Hides to Rhodes (d, 668) Rush lots of vans.
1630 Space Flight => Plastics. Cunaxa Dye to Karakorum (d, 212)

 

[grigor]

1640 Plastics => Nuke Fission.
1650 Spanish steal something, but without MPE we don’t know what it is. Probably Space Flight. Apollo in Samarkand
1660 Fission =>Power
1670 Kabul Wine to Gortyn (d, 410). Khorasan Silk to Toledo (d, 252)
1680 Zulus: offer Communism. We decline - don’t want the science hit yet. Nuke Power => Amphib W. Karakorum Salt to Artemisium (d, 604).
1690 Amphib => Laser. 9 vans built. Another 20 and the space race can begin. Cunaxa Hides to Cardiff (d, 275) Kabul Hides to Saragossa (d, 146). Cremona Silk to Miletos (d, 140) Still 3 techs to go. Start building next turn.
1700 Laser => Superconductor. Kazan Gold to Madrid (d, 212). Kabul Wine to Seville (d, 315). Trade with Zulu for Feudalism to unlock Fusion power. Start Structurals now? I plan for speed: 15/3-3/1-1-1 in 3 turns. Not now - not enough vans or cities. Build another round of vans so we don’t lose any more WOWs.

1710. First Structural built. Nishapur Gems to Toledo (d, 372).
1720.. Greeks start Women’s Suffrage. Superconductor => Fusion Cremona Beads to Sparta (d, 147).
1730 Celts almost done with Eiffel. We rush it.
1740 Eiffel Tower in Basra. Zulus almost done with Womens Suffrage. Spanish build 3 structural - so it WAS Space Flight they stole.
1750 Womens Suffrage in Kabul.
1752 Zimbabwe builds UN. Spanish build 4 more structurals
1754 Future Tech 1=> Theology. Launch 15/3-3/1-1-1 ship. ETA 1769

Afterwards I got Bach, Hoover, and Manhattan, grew huge cities. But not like Mercurios!

 

[Ali Ardavan]

This was an extremely unusual game for me. I never tried to make fully packed cities on a massive scale before.

And you were not alone. It is a tribute to the versatility of this game that a simple restriction can have such an effect for seasoned players.

Need 13 cities by 1000BC to consider it a good start.

Obviously a gross overestimation. None of us achieved anything close to that.

4000 Pop Hut: choices are Alphabet and Chariot. Alph makes Monarchy that much faster, so there it is.

And indeed it made Monarchy faster for you. I would have definitely chosen the Chariot. In fact I chose 25g, which is far less valuable than a none chariot, over Alphabet. But then you achieved Monarchy 20 turns before I did.

Should I use Peaster’s early gold plan? I don’t.

What is that?

1630 Space Flight => Plastics
1640 ... Apollo in Samarkand

Amazing speed. You are fast no matter how you play.

1650 Spanish steal something, but without MPE we don’t know what it is. Probably Space Flight.

A pop up always tells you what they stole!?

1700 Not now - not enough vans or cities. Build another round of vans so we don’t lose any more WOWs.

It seems to me you got every wonder that mattered and then some. What WOW where you afraid of losing?

1730 Celts almost done with Eiffel. We rush it.
1740 Eiffel Tower in Basra. Zulus almost done with Womens Suffrage. ...
1750 Womens Suffrage in Kabul.

Why bother? These contribute very little to your game as is. Why not Hoover instead of Suffrage? Were you just attempting to keep it out of rival's hands for the score?

Afterwards I got Bach, Hoover, and Manhattan, grew huge cities. But not like Mercurios!

 

[Ali Ardavan]

haleewud, Major, Charlie Chuck,
We know you have been playing. Any updates?

Inkerman, did you sit this one out?

 

[grigor]

Thanks Ali.

Peaster recommends starting with T60S40 until there is a need for better government because of the number of cities. It lets him ICS faster by PRB settlers. But it also delays Monarchy, and I was nervous about the inability to build enough cities to power my way through the 1000BC - 1AD period.
Also, Early Monarchy allowed the speed necessary to win an extra early wonder. I still lost LH and Pyr, but I got MPE, Colossus, and HG, which I note is better than some players this game.

In the end, I was stockpiling vans and built Apollo in 1 turn. Later, as you guessed, I was trying to keep the wonders out of rivals' hands. Usually I would just conquer the AI wonders, and I was planning to build only 17 cities to allow for just that, but I got too many Advanced Tribes. But you may be right - using the shields on 30 vans for infrastructure and farming might have made more difference to the score. I didn't end up with a particularly exalted Civ rating. My capital was size 33 at the end, but I also had 9 cities over size 20.

 

[Jokemaster]

Jesus Christ grigor. You're putting us (well, me) to shame. The strong Spanish definitely seemed to help. They were anemic in my game.

Side-note: Is it me or does the AI decide in advance which civs are supposed to be "strong" or "weak" in relation to the human player? Seems to be a recurring trend in 7-player games to have a serious laggard somewhere.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Also, Early Monarchy allowed the speed necessary to win an extra early wonder. I still lost LH and Pyr, but I got MPE, Colossus, and HG, which I note is better than some players this game.

Why did you care about Lighthouse in this game? Everyone was trireme reachable. I realize Lighthouse makes your triremes faster by allowing them to take a straight route rather than a crooked one hugging shores. But in a competitive game losing some early wonders to the AI is inevitable.

My capital was size 33 at the end, but I also had 9 cities over size 20.

That is pretty impressive without much effort on infrastructure. Though I suppose you did build happiness structures (temples, marketplaces, banks, Colloseums) and science structures and just skipped the shield structures (offshore platforms, factories, ...)

Side-note: Is it me or does the AI decide in advance which civs are supposed to be "strong" or "weak" in relation to the human player? Seems to be a recurring trend in 7-player games to have a serious laggard somewhere.

I seriously doubt it is a decision. Random events cause that: hut outcomes, barbarians, chance encounters (wandering warrior happens to find an undefended rival city and walks in), early warfare (which can go either way by chance and has detrimental effects for the loser)

 

[Jokemaster]

I seriously doubt it is a decision. Random events cause that: hut outcomes, barbarians, chance encounters (wandering warrior happens to find an undefended rival city and walks in), early warfare (which can go either way by chance and has detrimental effects for the loser)

When there is early contact, sure. But when it's 1250 AD and they've been completely isolated and still on a handful of cities, like the Spanish were in my game... dunno. I'm starting to notice it a bit more, maybe happens more often w/militaristic civs (harder to catch up?)

 

[grigor]

Ali:

LH would have allowed faster trade with the Zulus and Greeks. I did eventually have a few trades to Greece, but the difference between 12 coast hugging turns and 8 straight-line turns means noticeably faster science.I had only one trade with Zulus as I recall.

We had a choose-your-wonder GOTM about a hundred ago, and the players who chose LH were significantly faster in often surprising ways. Granted, that was in 4000BC, but it still made an impression on me.

 

[grigor]

Ali:

I grew my cities with 40 Luxuries for much of the game. I built Karakoram as an SSC, but in the others I just put in Temple, MP, Aqueduct, and Bank, plus trade routes, Because I was not very spread out, that was enough to get to size 12 for all of them; and the ones with abundant food I put in a a sewer. I was proud of the decision to prioritize Adam Smith. Everybody needed mass transit at about size 15. The libraries and Universities mostly came after launch. I put in offshore platforms as soon as the became available. I built only one factory.

This was the new and fun part of this game.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

LH would have allowed faster trade with the Zulus and Greeks. I did eventually have a few trades to Greece, but the difference between 12 coast hugging turns and 8 straight-line turns means noticeably faster science.I had only one trade with Zulus as I recall.

I was frustrated with myself for having started trade late. My first route was established in +600 when my science city of Nishapur was already size 12. I started by trading with the Americans and Germans. I also built 2 cities on the little islands south of the mainland for domestic offshore trade in -525 and -175. I never traded with Greeks in the entire game. Once I had enough Triremes I sent one to the Zulu island for deliveries and it would back up to the island just west of theirs were I had a city thanks to an advanced tribe to pick up new deliveries dropped off there. This saved going around a long peninsula. Later in the game I started trading with Spanish as well.

We had a choose-your-wonder GOTM about a hundred ago, and the players who chose LH were significantly faster in often surprising ways. Granted, that was in 4000BC, but it still made an impression on me.

I recall such a game too, it was shortly after I had joined GOTM and I was on a steep learning curve. If you are talking about the same game, we had a choice of 7 starting saves to to choose from, one for each of the 7 ancient wonders. I remember those who chose Hanging Gardens did pretty well.

I grew my cities with 40 Luxuries for much of the game. I built Karakoram as an SSC, but in the others I just put in Temple, MP, Aqueduct, and Bank, plus trade routes, Because I was not very spread out, that was enough to get to size 12 for all of them; and the ones with abundant food I put in a a sewer. I was proud of the decision to prioritize Adam Smith.

Why? While less worthwhile than usual due to lower number of cities (and hence lower number of overall structures), I think it was still worthwhile but definitely not a priority. I built it too but that was because Nishapur, thanks to King Richard's, had a huge shield output and my tech was not advanced enough for many other wonders.

The libraries and Universities mostly came after launch.

What?? You managed to get through the tech tree so fast without libraries and universities. Wow!

This was the new and fun part of this game.

I am glad to hear that. Others have noted that too. And this is the only game in recent memory whose spoiler thread has reached page 5. I will attempt to repeat the experience.

 

[grigor]

Ali:

Adam Smith allowed me to set the science rate one percent higher for 40 turns. That plus trade with the Spanish allowed me to get through the tech tree while running 40% luxuries.

I still don't understand your love affair with King Richard. It seems to me that the power of Trade makes up for the low shield output until Railroad, and then it expires almost immediately. During the same time period (early Republic/Demo) I was able to build the infrastructure in my science city as first priority after a big trade, and otherwise produce a van every 2 turns by rush buying the intermediate rows. What do you see as the benefits of KRC?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I moved the subsequent discussion on King Richard and other strategy concerns and analysis to a thread of its own. Please follow up there:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14340273#post14340273

 

[CharlieChuck]

haleewud, Major, Charlie Chuck,
We know you have been playing. Any updates?

Inkerman, did you sit this one out?

I'm quite far behind everyone else and unlikely to finish in a reasonable time. I do however want to finish this eventually as it's a good idead, so will just play it every now and again. I think I'm better off starting the July gotm to try and catch up.

One thing I have noticed is the patched AI version of MGE gives an advantage (possibly an unfair one) as I was able to get gifts almost endlessly and never got attacked by the Celts. I'll post a log of where I am later (think it's about 700ad)

 

[Jokemaster]

And the Classic 2.42 patch also gives an advantage since it's very easy (compared to near-impossible) to get rid of the dye and coal bug (impossibly high demand, clogs up demand lists hardcore) in Classic compared to MGE. Makes for easier trading.

I could theoretically use ProfCiv2's (Prof Garfield) tutorial on Puppy Linux, to run Civ2 there, but my patched version of Classic from eons ago is on an external HDD. Idk if it's even possible to transfer the files between VM's.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I'm quite far behind everyone else and unlikely to finish in a reasonable time. I do however want to finish this eventually as it's a good idead, so will just play it every now and again. I think I'm better off starting the July gotm to try and catch up.

Thanks for the update. Hopefully you get a chance to finish soon and submit.

 

[CharlieChuck]

And the Classic 2.42 patch also gives an advantage since it's very easy (compared to near-impossible) to get rid of the dye and coal bug (impossibly high demand, clogs up demand lists hardcore) in Classic compared to MGE. Makes for easier trading.

I could theoretically use ProfCiv2's (Prof Garfield) tutorial on Puppy Linux, to run Civ2 there, but my patched version of Classic from eons ago is on an external HDD. Idk if it's even possible to transfer the files between VM's.

I think the patched AI MGE advantage is greater on deity level, although point taken about 2.42 being less than perfect. I've still got the original Civ2 CD (and an ISO copy I took for when the disk finally fails) so may look into Linux.

Thanks for the update. Hopefully you get a chance to finish soon and submit.

I'm at 1000ad not 700 as I thought, but turns are going to take a while from here on.

 

[CharlieChuck]

1 ad to 520 ad

1 Zulu at war with greeks, germans recapture hamburg, spanish acquire engineering, we finally discover literacy -> Philosophy. Van tabriz beads to seville [d] 68g, van Karakroum wine to toledo 50g , Khanbalyk founded [11] 50,46 (disorder), Khorasan [12] 60,35. Approach spain, iron working for engineering, poly for literacy, no gift
rearrange workers for shield not science, tech now 32 turns
20 Spanish nearly finish HG, 6 vans to KAra for copernicus, hut = philosophy, land 2 vans on zulu continent
40 Toledo builds HG, greeks switch to sun tzu, Americans capture a german city, choose and learn University,start The republic, Karakorum builds Copernicus, Kashgar salt to Bapedi [d] 60g, just realised Zulu don't have monarchy!, try to give them it but they break off after philosophy
60 Germans change to GL, Zulu lose swazi to greeks, Give the wheel to zulus, power now moderate, give spain philo
80
100 spain start krc, van karakorum beads zimbabwe [d] 60g
120 give spain astro, get 50g gift, give zulu university, hut = barbs 71,19
140 give spain univ,give zulu trade
160 give zulu seafaring
180 give zulu monarchy (finally!)
200 approach zulu, no gift, spain 50g gift
220 spainish acquire monotheism, Americans learn bridge building
240
260 Nothing's going on, Republic still about 5 turns away. Should have gone for Hanging Gardens!
280 Germans build GL, Spanish acquire Medicene. Hut = invention,
300 Americans offer 150g and bridge building if declare war on celts, have to refuse. Share maps with Greeks.
320 Spanish acquire republic... 2 wonder vans finished, give spanish navigation for republic (I think 360 is oedo year?), 2 vans land on greek continent & 2 on zulu,
340 zulu govt overthrown, we start learning physics, ask spain for gift, get monotheism, tech now 25 turns and still 5 odd turns away. Basra settler.
Revolution
360 Zulu monarchy, spain nearly finished krc. No govt change??
380 zulu builds oracle, spain completes krc, greeks nearly complete sun tzu, Republic chosen (got Oedo year wrong) 0/3/7 science is 30 turns. Hides Kabul Bapedi [d] 88g. SPend 58g rush Karakorum library, disband 1 warrior
400 athens finished sun tzu, Kashgar cloth to zimbabwe 52g, taxes to 0/6/4
420 Physics -> Magnetism, Karak salt to Corinth [d] 208g,
440 tabriz corinth wine 58g, hut = legion
460 Legion disbanded (unsupported should have checked...) taxes to 1/5/4
480
500 taxes 2/4/4
520 hut = crusaders

@520

Cities 12 : Republic. 30 techs, researching magnetism - 18 turns at tsc 2/4/4. Power weak.
Wonders : Marco's, Coppernicus.
Units: 4 settlers, 9 warriors, 1 crusader, 2 triremes, 2 caravel, 11 vans
9 trade routes (all foreign)

Despite the hut luck of philosophy and invention, I think not going for HG has cost me dearly. Cities aren't celebrating so I guess I should have been building temples, but I didn't think of it.

 

[Major Advantage]

haleewud, Major, Charlie Chuck,
We know you have been playing. Any updates?

Inkerman, did you sit this one out?

No updates from my side. I have not played much further than 1 AD and have no intention to pick up the game again.

I have just come home last night from 4-week-trip through France, that, one the one hand, was very pleasant. On the other hand, the ending was very dissatisfying. Losing the semi-final despite being the better team... I really would have preferred to take the trip to Paris yesterday instead of the trip home!

So, no 177 from me, an OCC for 178, 179 will be skipped, I am not into scenarios anyway, I have started on #180 today.