GOTM 41: Pregame discussion

[Mistfit]

We will forgive you if there is iron close

 

[AlanH]

What's the big deal? The start date is 15th, and it was still the 15th for most of us when Ainwood posted it!

 

[al_thor]

I have Iron. How much GPT are you willing to pay?

 

[BlackBetsy]

I don't know who designed this starting position, but just looking at the squares we can see, and the production value of those squares and the availability of industrious worker turns......it is either pure coincidence or sheer brilliance.

I'm hoping for the sheer brilliance.

Or is it that you can always design a first 80-turn sequence with zero waste of food or shields and have the events necessary for it to happen (e.g., worker completing irrigation) to happen just in time (e.g., one turn prior)?

Or do you micromanagers do this all the time for the GOTM? This is my first foray into designing the first 80 turns for a capital city in advance.

 

[MeteorPunch]

That's a crazy idea I've never heard of. You have to be able to react to situations too, so it seems kind of pointless.

 

[BlackBetsy]

What do they say about war? The plans never survive contact with the enemy.

I actually started planning the thing to see how long it would take to get the settler factory up and running and how many settlers I could pump out by 1000 BC....the answer is 3 warriors, 9 settlers, 1 granary and a spear.

I've been trying to perfect settler factories lately to get them working with no waste/no loss of population below start level etc., so the Excel I made up to do that was mostly meant for that purpose.

 

[Niklas]

I generally design some 30-40-ish turns from the start, and then extend that so that my plan is 10-20-ish turns ahead. The first 30 turns are almost always static, but after that you never know.

Regarding perfection, you can always fool around with the citizens and your workers so that you don't waste any food or shields, but it's not always it pays off. In this map it is rather easy since the food bonuses are spread out, in a game where you have a single high food source you probably have less options.

 

[voe]

Math...
Size 5->5.5, 6 shields (City, 3FPs, 2 furs)
Size 5.5->6, 8 shields (City, 3FPs, 2 furs + forest on growth)
Size 6->6.5, 7 shields (City, 3FPs, 2 furs, 1 plain)
Size 6.5->7(5), 9 shields (City, 3FPs, 2 furs, 1 plain + forest on growth)

Bada-bang, bada-bing!

I urge everyone to settle SE

However an early second Worker will still get this going quicker. Even if roading isn't done:
Irrigate 3xFPs = 6 turns;
Chop+Irrigate 2 Furs = 14 turns;
Irrigate Plain = 2 turns

Already 22 turns plus moves, and you need all those tiles improved for the factory to work. Without a second worker, that factory won't be running 'til well after 3000BC.

Hate to spoil the fun, so hope I am wrong, but how is this going to give 5 surplus food? Irrigated FP's give 1 extra, the others give no food bonus do they?

edit, stupid, forgot the city square. Shouldnt be civing so early

 

[Più Freddo]

However an early second Worker will still get this [the settler factory] going quicker.
[...]
Without a second worker, that factory won't be running 'til well after 3000BC.

I've put the data into a spread-sheet, using roading, since industrious worker moves are even more precious (admittedly, there are many rivers, which would speak against roading), and found the following:

Early settler vs. early worker

1. The early settler is, with a forest cut, ready in 3200 BC, 15 turns before the first settler from the early worker scheme.

2. The settler with two workers is ready in 2510 BC after a granary has been completed with two forest cuts and a warrior built while population accumulates. At the same time, the granary with a single forest cut is ready in the one-worker scheme.

3. If the second settler/city used the 15 turns to move into position, settle and build a warrior and a worker, both schemes are even in terms of units. The early settler scheme obviously has more territory and the early worker scheme more population with correspondingly less gold (happiness). If the second city has a very good location, it's an advantage for the early settler scheme, since more can be done in the 15 turns.

4. After the granary has been built, I tried two paths for the early settler scheme. One produces a warrior to synchronize the settler factory, the other starts at once with settler and then puts six shields into wealth. In both cases, the fourth settler (third from factory) and all following settlers are produced three (3) turns later than the corresponding settler from the early worker scheme.

5. The extra warrior or wealth is a bonus which does not occur in the early worker scheme (see assumption above). With the warrior, all settlers are three (3) turns late. With the wealth, the first (from the factory, second in total) is one (1) turn late, the second (third in total) is two (2) turns late.

6. In both schemes, improvements are basically ready when they are needed. The early worker scheme has no over-runs at all, either in shields or food. The early settler scheme has to be run with some caution -- the order of improving the three flood plains! -- to avoid waiting one turn after crossing the river.

7. The early settler scheme with extra warrior temporarily needs a fourth flood plain, otherwise only settler factory tiles used. Only the irrigated plains are outside the three by three box.

8. I didn't plan on building any temple, so up to three citizens must be kept happy with the pleasure lever until military police arrives from the suburbs and/or a second luxury is connected. Or you lose on scouting.

9. Population is high in the early worker scheme, so it'll cost something to keep all citizens happy. Initial research will suffer. Score will collect.

10. The single worker is ready for other assignments in 2150 BC, the assumed second worker in 2510 BC approximately. The pair of workers is ready in 2750 BC and 2710 BC, respectively, when the factory is ready. On average, that is ten (10) turns earlier. They can road towards the first factory-produced city location and speed up settlement.

Without roading things might look different, but the main advantage of producing a second worker appears to me to be that the workers are ready for other tasks so early. The advantages of producing an early settler would be (a) that city growth is more gradual and less costly if we need to do some heavy research and (b) that we have the chance to claim a superior city location much earlier. This location must be much better than the average of the few first cities.

Settlement speed is not all that different.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I've put the data into a spread-sheet, using roading, since industrious worker moves are even more precious (admittedly, there are many rivers, which would speak against roading), and found the following:

Early settler vs. early worker

1. The early settler is, with a forest cut, ready in 3200 BC, 15 turns before the first settler from the early worker scheme.

2. The settler with two workers is ready in 2510 BC after a granary has been completed with two forest cuts and a warrior built while population accumulates. At the same time, the granary with a single forest cut is ready in the one-worker scheme.

After re-calculating for the fact that irrigated plains with furs are 2 food 2 shields in despotism (I originally thought they were 2/1), I get exactly that sequence as well, with a chop at turns 12/13 and 24/25 .

You can turn this city into a 5-turn settler factory with 1 food waste and never have to worry about the city going to size 6 (and thus possible disorder if you do not have another lux connected) by 2350 and produce 10 settlers, 3 warriors, 1 spear and a granary in a War-War-Sett-Gran-Spear-Sett x9 sequence.

I'll probably use city 3 as a settler factory as well, given that I find a good enough location, and try to have two settler factories running by 1000 BC, along with a worker factory and a barracksed warrior plant (for Immortals upgrades).

I'd dedicate city 2 to the ToA...but...it's PTW. So I might want to either keep it as a potential 20K city with the Palace pre-build option, or turn it into another warrior/barracks/immortal factory.

 

[Vegasgustan]

All this talk of strategy and excessive planning has given me quite a head ache and also some serious eye strain. I think I am going to just fly by the sit of my pants on this one and see what happens. Sometimes, for me at least, just plopping down playing Civ makes for a more enjoyable game. In last month's GOTM I did just that and managed a Victory, so here is hoping history repeats itself. Who's with me? Who just wants to go with the flow and drop the mind numbing planning? No one, right?

 

[ionimplant]

All this talk of strategy and excessive planning has given me quite a head ache and also some serious eye strain. I think I am going to just fly by the sit of my pants on this one and see what happens. Sometimes, for me at least, just plopping down playing Civ makes for a more enjoyable game. In last month's GOTM I did just that and managed a Victory, so here is hoping history repeats itself. Who's with me? Who just wants to go with the flow and drop the mind numbing planning? No one, right?

it depends on whether you enjoy planning or not. sometimes the planning in itself is a lot of fun.

 

[eldar]

it depends on whether you enjoy planning or not. sometimes the planning in itself is a lot of fun.

All plans go out of the window as soon as that first contact is made anyway.

 

[al_thor]

I'm starting this game tonight.
My opening plans are:
Build = Warrior, Warrior, Worker, Granary, Settler, Settler, etc
Research = Pottery, Iron Working, hoping to meet and trade for other 1st-tier techs.

All other planning is hinged on the availability of Iron and if we are alone on the continent or not. If alone, then beeline for Map Making. If not alone, well, what happens then will depend on Iron. Still, (assuming Iron is readily available), I hate having a GA as a Despotism. Not quite sure what to do about that, as there is no Republic slingshot in PTW. Maybe go for Monarchy as I stockpile a good force.

 

[Smirk]

In last month's GOTM I did just that and managed a Victory, so here is hoping history repeats itself.

The better skilled players don't sit down to play and wonder *if* they will win, but how. This thread and the other spoilers are for discussion of this, this how. If you are not interested, then simply do not read it, duh! Of course ignoring these threads removes one of the best features of community play, but to each their own.

 

[BlackBetsy]

The better skilled players don't sit down to play and wonder *if* they will win, but how. This thread and the other spoilers are for discussion of this, this how. If you are not interested, then simply do not read it, duh! Of course ignoring these threads removes one of the best features of community play, but to each their own.

I agree, Smirk...but there is something to be said for NOT micromanaging. I think micromanaging the early turns is challenging and fun. You might call me nutso, but I do enjoy creating a turn-by-turn spreadsheet for city production and planning. Of course, it's also fun to fly by the seat of your pants and play really quickly, too (I enjoy a good, fast paced Tiny game too). Civ is flexible enough to accommodate both types of players.

One of the GREAT things about the planning threads is that you can learn a great deal of new stuff about the game. The settling on plains furs thing is something I never knew - had to start dozens of games to find a starting position to confirm that (grassland furs have no such bonus).

Through my pre-game planning and hypothesis testing on PTW, I discovered a bunch of things I didn't know:

(1) worker turns are different on PTW than on Conquests (had to redo planning because of this)
(2) if you build a pop unit (Settler or Worker), it does not re-set the food count to zero (or 10 if you have a granary)
(3) building pop the same turn as granary does not let you keep the 10 food in granary...you go down to zero (pop increases before granary built). Build granary the turn BEFORE a pop increase to maximize benefit.
(4) You get production from extra population unit in the inter-turn. Had no idea this happened. Still don't know how to control where the citizen works.
(5) Citizen tiles worked re-set after pop increase or unit/improvement is produced.

All these little micro-management things were invisible to me when I played the game from a macro sense. It's good to know them because even the most quickly played games often require some micromanagement at times.

 

[Niklas]

Here's some further info for you.

(2) if you build a pop unit (Settler or Worker), it does not re-set the food count to zero (or 10 if you have a granary)

You're right, however if your town has grown to 7, it works a bit different:
It takes 10 food to fill a granary on sizes 1-6, but 20 to fill it at size 7-11. Say that you build a settler at size 6 with 15 food in the bin, i.e. a full granary plus 5 food. After building, the town will be at size 4 with 15 food in the bin, i.e. a full granary and 5 food, just like before.
Say instead that you build a settler at size 7 with 15 food in the bin. That's 5 food from having a full granary. After building, the town will be at size 5 with 10 food in the bin, i.e. a full granary and nothing more.
Finally, say that you build a settler at size 7 with 25 food in the bin, i.e. a full granary plus 5 food. After building, the town will be at size 5 with 15 food in the bin, i.e. a full granary plus 5 food.

This is why a settler factory will not work above size 5(0) -> 7(0).

(4) You get production from extra population unit in the inter-turn. Had no idea this happened. Still don't know how to control where the citizen works.

I haven't nailed this one 100%, but I know the basics. You cannot directly control where the citizen is placed, you have to rely on the governor to put it where you want it. Since shields is the only commodity that is usable on growth, you want to tell him to emphasize production (right-click town, choose contact governor). This will make the citizen end up on the tile that gives the most shields.
It doesn't work all the time however, I learned this the hard way in GOTM40. It seems to me (please correct me those who know better) that as long as your town only makes 2 surplus food, the governor will always emphasize food. That sort of messes up your plans...

 

[Smirk]

(1) worker turns are different on PTW than on Conquests (had to redo planning because of this)
...

Yep, this is a "fix" for Conquests, you'll notice its only for industrious, it used to be workers were two times faster, now its like a third or something really weak.

 

[AlanH]

It seems to me (please correct me those who know better) that as long as your town only makes 2 surplus food, the governor will always emphasize food. That sort of messes up your plans...

As I understand it, the governor will always try to ensure that there is at least 2fpt surplus after growth. So if you are running at 2fpt surplus before growth the new citizen will be put on a 2fpt tile regardless of the "Emphasise Production" setting. If you are running at 3fpt surplus then I think the new citizen will go to an available forest or hill, but not to a mountain tile. If you are running at 4fpt surplus or more then you'll always get extra shields if there's a suitable tile available.

 

[blk990]

If anybody can help me, I'm having trouble with loading Conquest Class GOTM 41. Whenever I try and load it, 37% of the way through, I get a "Loading Error" message saying-

"Problem loading file '.Art/Unit/EqWorker/EqWorker.INI'"

I have patch 1.29f.