GOTM 41: Spoiler 2

[Redbad]

You have to contact Ainwood or AlanH on that one.

 

[Lawrence]

PTW

My second attempt at 20K after beaten up badly in GOTM 40.

I didn't keep notes so this write-up is primarily based on memory.

For the choice of the 20K city, I found the coasts too much unproductive, the river delta that many had used as 20K city choice has few mountains, hills or even shielded grasslands! So I settled my 20K city, Pasargadae, at 3 tiles east of Persepolis. This gives 24 shields in a pop 12 city, I didn't build the Forbidden palace in Pasargadae because the corruption in shields is only 2, an FP would reduce that to 1, so it would take me 200 turns to benefit from an FP, I would rather save that for early high culture wonders.

Ancient Ages
After meeting early Rome and Japan, I researched directly towards Literature, and then Republic. No ancient wars, but I was building up my Immortal army to fight Rome. Entered middle age at around 50 BC.

Middle Ages
I don't have the Great Lighthouse, so I sinked 4 galleys in the ocean only to see sea waters ahead. I waited for Astronomy before sending three more galleys to make contact with everyone. Forgot the date, maybe around 400 AD since I went directly for Astronomy in the middle ages.

My first attack at Rome (10 BC to 270 AD) failed at the gate of the city of Rome. I was successful in taking most of the plain cities, but the city of Rome was size 7, on a hill and heavily guarded with Legions. I amassed around 10 immortals to attack it, but retreated after about 6 died without killing any of the guards (!). Thus I decided to turn around against Japan in sought of easier leaders.

The attack on Japan was much easier, Japan in most time has only archers and warriors to defend, so I quickly took the cities, but still no leaders! I was very frustrated when Japan was already reduced to 2 cities and I had scores of elite victories and still no leader.

At this time the Japanese saved my game. They send a galley to land a warrior on my heartland. Desperate for leaders I decided to let my only elite spearman to attack him. The victory gives my first leader Darius! That really set an example for the immortals on the frontiers.

With the leader things was much easier, Heroic Epic was built in 520 AD, and I attacked Rome again at 680AD (that was a bug in PTW, when you demand GPT deals on a peace treaty and 20 turns has expired the deal, the peace treaty was automatically signed for another 20 turns, I tried all means to enrage the Romans but they won't declare, so I had to wait for about 10 turns to declare when the second peace treaty expired). This time the successful attack on Rome gives the second GL. I immediately switched my research to Music Theory and rushed Bach's in 720AD. After that the game proceeds smoothly before I entered industrial at 800AD.

Pasargadae 20k sequence:
Library 1500BC
Temple 1275BC
Great Library 430BC
Hanging Gardens 50AD
Sistine Chapel 370AD
Cathedral 400AD
Colosseum 410AD
University 420AD
Heroic Epic 520AD
Copernicus Observatory 710AD
JS Bach's Cathedral 720AD
Newton's University 890AD
Forbidden Palace 950AD

in 990AD Pasargadae has 3872 + 63 cpt, with a nice 104 spt. The frustrating point is that the AI didn't research Free Artistry and Economics for now. But I would expect that they will finish them for me in a few turns so I can focus on racing to the modern ages.

 

[eldar]

The best 20K location in the game was Rome After I moved my Palace there I was pulling 28spt at size 12, 39nspt net (40 -1 waste) with rails. Its potential with a Hospital would've been scary.

Of course AD700 was a bit late to start a 20K attempt....

 

[Grogs]

The best 20K location in the game was Rome After I moved my Palace there I was pulling 28spt at size 12, 39nspt net (40 -1 waste) with rails. Its potential with a Hospital would've been scary.

Of course AD700 was a bit late to start a 20K attempt....

I think my turnlog actually says something to the effect of 'I finally found a good 20K spot: Rome.' I can't complain too much though. We had better spots shieldwise than I chose for Pasargadae (SW on the coast/river), but I wanted to build the Colossus, so a compromise was necessary. As such, I never got Pasargadae past 19 spt until the IA.

I never really had a chance to see what Rome could do though. I had the opportunity to rush a palace in Rome with a GL, but I chose to rush a wonder in my 20K city instead. After all, nothing is more important when you're doing 20K. By the time I could have built the palace by hand in Rome, there wasn't much point in doing so.

 

[DJMGator13]

@Bremp - excellent game. I thought about going 100K again but I was never really focused on it. I was having too much fun dominating. I see you stayed in Republic and cash rushed versus poprushing or did you make a late game switch to republic? Also did you move your palace around the map to help build up active cores?

 

[AlanH]

the only thing i'm wondering is whether he has got a similar one for conquest. i guess we can also somehow modify the PTW version to do it... but too lazy to do that.

-ing here as well. I did start to make the changes for C3C but I got sidetracked and never completed it. I'll make a serious effort to get back to it ... honest

Alan is jealous of us PC owners cause he's only got a Mac and he can't get C3C
Awaiting Alan's per usual Mac-rant...

I see you've been having fun while my back was turned Jealousy is hardly the appropriate word for the emotion I feel when I think of PC owners. Pity seems more like it .

Sorry I'm late, but I've only just qualified for this spoiler (sort of ... I finished a fair-to-middling Domination victory, with Navigation and half the bottom MA tech tree researched). I'll try and post some notes on the game shortly.

 

[AlanH]

Um... Will I still be able to submit my game...? (I haven't been getting any of the Conquest only stuff either... Seems I mainly lost the ability to rush a GW...)

Sorry If you've played this game using the C3C software then when you attempt to upload your finish save the submission system detect this and it will reject it. We can't accept entries that use C3C to play the Classic games, as the rule sets are too different. If they were comparable then we wouldn't be running two different games each month. The big changes are not controlled by the save file, they are things like the corruption models and relative strengths of armies, and the Great Leader changes that you have seen.

 

[AlanH]

Predator. Going for a violent end, as usual.

I didn't post a first spoiler, other than to remark on my bad luck. I lost settler production twice to disease as Persepolis was getting started, and then my iron expired before I'd built a barracks in its town. I'd left my iron town disconnected as it was outside my 9-city radius-4 core, intending to send warriors there for upgrade.

However, I pressed on and found another source of iron in the jungle, and snaffled it before the Japanese reached it. I was then faced with a dilemma. Caesar had iron in his territory but at that time he hadn't hooked it up and produced any legions, at least not in Rome. I had 23 vet warriors, and only enough cash for about five of them. I was still a despot, and wasn't excited about triggering a Golden Age before a change of government. So I could either finish research on Republic first and then suspend research to get some cash for ugrades, or turn research to 10% immediately. I chose the second option as I preferred to hit Caesar before he had legions. The despotic Golden Age wasn't too bad, actually. I was able to get research going reasonably well, and produce Immortals fast enough to finish up with too many to throw at my enemies.

So my Golden Age started in 690 BC and Rome had declined and fallen by 130 BC. Meanwhile I pop-rushed and sank a few boats looking for new friends, and made contact with Keltoi and the others around 400 BC (bad note taking). In 30 BC I declared on Japan and they left the scene in 230 AD.

During the Japanese campaign I won Great Leader Darius and an opportunity to start my second core. I decided I needed some high productivity coastal towns, which my Persepolis core didn't provide. So I built a new town to the west of Rome to house my Forbidden Palace, and focused a tight cluster of towns around it within radius 4.x, including several coastal towns to churn out Caravels.

By 430 AD I had over 50 Immortals, and a fleet of 20 or so Caravels. I set uup a ship chain across the narrowest passage, from my west coast over to the Ottomans. My Immortals simply wiped the floor with his spears. He had one or two archers and horses, but they made little impression on my massed stacks. A second Great Leader built Magellans Voyage, extending the range of my existing ship chain nicely as my destination moved north. The only other Leader I produced was used to move my capital to Sogut.

In 540 AD I had consigned Suleyman to a single town in the south of Spain, and it was Brennus's turn. His poorly roaded, jungly domain made travel hard work, but he had no iron and no horses, so his defence was minimal and his counter-attack didn't happen. I was able to divert some ships to use to bypass the worst of his road network, and he was dead in 640 AD. England died in 760 AD, by which time I had opened a front with Spain and taken several of her cities. Knights were starting to make themselves felt by now, but the Immortals had done most of it. I had over 80 of them scampering around the other continent at their peak.

I had hoped to go for Conquest, but time was limited, so I threw settlers at the offshore island and cash rushed libraries to fill in my territorial gains, and when CRpMapstat reported I was over the limit I decided to call it a day. I would probably have taken another 10 to 15 turns to eliminate Spain and Iroquois.

A fun game with some interesting puzzles. I've learnt that knights and cavalry are not the only way to conquer the world, though it sure feels slow without them.

Thanks Ainwood

 

[solenoozerec]

A fun game with some interesting puzzles. I've learnt that knights and cavalry are not the only way to conquer the world, though it sure feels slow without them.

Yep, very slow. At the end of the game I had 152 immortals, most of them were waiting for a departure to another continet.
These guys are so cheap and slow that they are getting built much faster than they are getting killed. As a result they accomulate.
It is particularly frustrating after COTM10 with Keshicks which were flying, aahh .

 

[AlanH]

Hehe! I haven't played with Keshiks, but Cracker's set of Mongol fast units was unbelievable. I did decide to include Engineering in my research program as the rivers made things even slower during the home continent conquest. 152 Immortals though!

 

[tao]

My second attempt at 20K after beaten up badly in GOTM 40.

For the choice of the 20K city, I found the coasts too much unproductive, the river delta that many had used as 20K city choice has few mountains, hills or even shielded grasslands! So I settled my 20K city, Pasargadae, at 3 tiles east of Persepolis. This gives 24 shields in a pop 12 city

That is an interesting approach. You forfeit the coastal Wonders (Colossus, Lighthouse, Magellan's), but you still only got 2 of the AA Wonders. Why didn't you got e.g. for Oracle?

I built Pasargadae on the coast (regrettably I missed the Lighthouse by 3 turns) getting 20 shields, but most builds are either cash- or Leader-hurried. Let's see how this will continue; 990AD you lead 3872 vs 3550 in culture, but I have more cpt. IMHO 20K games need experience - you always learn how to do better, but they are such a drag to play.

 

[ionimplant]

when will the spoiler 3 come out? with so many people trying for 20K, it'll be interesting to compare...

 

[tao]

when will the spoiler 3 come out? with so many people trying for 20K, it'll be interesting to compare...

Maybe it would help if your spoiler would have been more specific than

i'll post the culture building date in the final spoiler.

 

[ionimplant]

sorry for not providing the details earlier.
finally i dig out the game and record the date.
i feel the civ III is a very refreshing game - i cannot remember much about GOTM41 after I finish the game-intensity weekend for COTM11 (again won by 20K )

also after reading some other posts, especially those from COTM10 3rd spoiler, i realize how gigantic a gap there is between me and those top players. i will stop dreaming of getting an award. it's really exciting to read those strategy used by bradleyfeanor, et al.
i realized though i didn't lose out on too many wonders, my building sequence really sucks in terms of cpt....
Temple 2190 BC
Oracle 1075 BC
Colossus 630 BC
Great Library 70 BC
Library 50 AD ( too late...)
Hanging Gardens 270 AD
Lighthouse 400 AD
Cathedral 440 AD
Colosseum 450 AD
Forbidden Palace 560 AD
Sistine Chapel 570 AD
Copericus' Observatory 790 AD
Bach's Cathedral 1110 AD
University 1120 AD
Shakespeare's Theatre 1295 AD
Heroic Epic 1335 AD
Newton's University 1395 AD
Magellan's Voyage 1425 AD
Pyramids didn't even try
Great Wall didn't even try
Art of War didn't even try
Leonardo's Workshop didn't even try
Smith's Trading post lost by a few turns, but conquered a few turns after its construction.

at 990AD, Parspargai has 3,885 culture, making only 56cpt(several high cpt wonders haven't been built yet due to the slow tech pace).

 

[Lawrence]

That is an interesting approach. You forfeit the coastal Wonders (Colossus, Lighthouse, Magellan's), but you still only got 2 of the AA Wonders. Why didn't you got e.g. for Oracle?

I built Pasargadae on the coast (regrettably I missed the Lighthouse by 3 turns) getting 20 shields, but most builds are either cash- or Leader-hurried. Let's see how this will continue; 990AD you lead 3872 vs 3550 in culture, but I have more cpt. IMHO 20K games need experience - you always learn how to do better, but they are such a drag to play.

I was beaten on the Oracle by something like 3 turns, by the Ottomans.

Maybe I shouldn't have build granary in Pasargadae and worker factory Susa. My opening strategy still needs to be improved.

But a matter of fact was that my city site was not very productive in despotism. Its food mainly comes from flood plains, and shields from mountains and hills. Its full production power wasn't realized until sanitation has bring the pop to 20 and 104 spt.

Your leader fishing was awesome! Without so many leaders I don't think you can beat my time since I have much more spt and can wrap up industrial and modern wonders much more quickly. I didn't get more leaders until about 1150 AD, when I didn't need any leaders to hurry wonders (all wonders that can be built has been built, the last one was to be finished in few turns).

I realized my one big mistake. I shouldn't have gifted the AI to industrial ages (didn't get anything from the Ottomans, heck!), holding The Corporation and hoped them to research Economics and Free Artistry for me. Re-reading the science post in the war academy I realized that I should keep them at Theory of Gravity or more preferably, Physics (by getting them to industrial, I urged them to research Nationalism and Communism ). I end up researched these techs myself, at a very late date.

We'll see the results, given all my mistakes, I think you will beat my time, but I still think that my 20k site was better.

 

[tao]

Maybe I shouldn't have build granary in Pasargadae and worker factory Susa.

Never ever build a granary in your 20K city. Join workers from a worker factory.

But a matter of fact was that my city site was not very productive in despotism. Its food mainly comes from flood plains, and shields from mountains and hills. Its full production power wasn't realized until sanitation has bring the pop to 20 and 104 spt.

I got 20spt in despotism, 67 spt later. But the early shields count, IMHO.

I realized my one big mistake. I shouldn't have gifted the AI to industrial ages (didn't get anything from the Ottomans, heck!)

IMHO there is a great (unfair?) advantage for PtW over 1.29. In most of my games the free tech nationalism is "useless" compared to steam. OTOH in this game monotheism was good to get cathedrals. But rocketry will be bad in the MT compared to computers.

I think you will beat my time, but I still think that my 20k site was better.

1. Yes, so do I.
2. Yes, but a better site in the long range does not win a 20K game, as I learned in gotm39.

 

[tao]

sorry for not providing the details earlier.
finally i dig out the game and record the date.

Thank you. Even without a final spoiler, IMHO you will not win this one.

also after reading some other posts, especially those from COTM10 3rd spoiler, i realize how gigantic a gap there is between me and those top players. i will stop dreaming of getting an award.

Don't. I never thougt of getting a award until it "just happened". And then I decided to go for one of each.

IMHO the awards are "easy" compared to the medals. But nonetheless I will try.

 

[ionimplant]

Thank you. Even without a final spoiler, IMHO you will not win this one.

i agree. i'm a little confused because it seems i've grabbed most high cpt wonders but still getting much less cpt compared to you and Lawrance. is it because i built those wonders too late? or because i built the library too late? i did some calculation to see how building library earlier would help. if i had built it earlier than the great library, i would increase the culture by about 300-400 and the cpt at 990AD would be 3 more due to the doubling effect. that will make the winnning date 3/4 turns earlier...

 

[ionimplant]

Can we plant forest and then chop them to get the 10 shields in gotm/cotm?
i remember reading some good player's article talking about doing this in newly conquered enemy metropolitan to decrease population quickly. but it didn't work in my recent games.

 

[bluebox]

Can we plant forest and then chop them to get the 10 shields in gotm/cotm?

Forestry can be a little bit irritating in Civ3. IIRC, the main rule is: you can only chop each tile once and get the 10s, wether there was forest from the beginning or the forest has been made by workers. MM freaks seem to use a code in the city names to remember the forested tiles.

If you want to learn more, there is at least an article from cracker about "forestry operations". You'll have to search for that by yourself, sorry.


**************************************************

My game (open class) runs smoothly. I haven't kept any log, so I cannot give you dates. In 1200AD, my world looks like this:

I will keep my territory as it is and go for space race. I've researched in 4-turn steps far into the Ind. Age already. Ottomans are my main trading partners, but I get all luxuries anf gpt deals from Spain and England. I don't do gpt deals with Ottomans to keep their research capacity.

From a historic perspective, the Persians in my game have a very interesting palace in their Capital named Osaka: Each side shows architectural patterns that are radically different in style from the rest. To this day it is completely unclear for historians in my little CivWorld why.