I should be posting my first game o' the month here shortly. as with the first reply the diety level is a bit concerning (esp. considering our civ is spain). i'll try this conquest level out. should allow the game to be a bit more bearable! also just wanted to mention that this tiering concept should be a good thing.
Gotm20-Spain CONQUEST Bonus Pregame
- Thread starter cracker
- Start date
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Yes, the fortress would have MP duty. Any unit with an attack or defend value works as military police. Look at the king units in PTW, they have 0 attack, 2 defend and they can work as military police.
Treasure chests: You get 3 at the start, but Cracker didn't say you could build anymore. You probably can't build more. If you can, it probably wouldn't be advisable until much later in the game when you have a very productive core and you have distant high-corrupt cities that need a little boost in building a temple/harbor or something.
Treasure chests: You get 3 at the start, but Cracker didn't say you could build anymore. You probably can't build more. If you can, it probably wouldn't be advisable until much later in the game when you have a very productive core and you have distant high-corrupt cities that need a little boost in building a temple/harbor or something.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
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First off let me say that I think that the announcements made recently are great. It amazes me that the staff are willing to put so much effort into this on our behalf and I just want to say thanks!
I like all the proposals set out in this thread except for the immobile defenders. It's just too much like a mod for me. Sorry.
I think that the ability to buy shields in despotism is fine and would increase this a bit at the expense of the immobile defender.
I like all the proposals set out in this thread except for the immobile defenders. It's just too much like a mod for me. Sorry.
I think that the ability to buy shields in despotism is fine and would increase this a bit at the expense of the immobile defender.
denyd
Emperor
While I expect to play the Open Level Games normally, this being a Deity level, I will probably play conquest on for GOTM 20 (I've never won a Diety game). The only ones I've played were the past GOTM's and my goal was to just be alive when someone else either launched or got voted leader. (success as Babs / lost as Iroquois)
I'll still probably be a little too timid, even with the bonus goodies to get a win, but I'll probably survive a lot longer, with more cities and tech than past games. It was always a little intimidating to hope that your pikemen would have a chance against tanks & artillery. At least this time, I might get to the Industrial Age before some else launches.
I'll still probably be a little too timid, even with the bonus goodies to get a win, but I'll probably survive a lot longer, with more cities and tech than past games. It was always a little intimidating to hope that your pikemen would have a chance against tanks & artillery. At least this time, I might get to the Industrial Age before some else launches.
I definitely will try the Conquest - it sounds like fun, and I'm not really ready for Diety.
The fortress sounds fantastic, but why obsolete so soon? Seems like it should be around until Feudalism, and first upgrade to musket. Some civs start w/Bronze!
So the obvious thing to do is settle your 2 towns, use chest for fortresses, build a few warriors, then start a settler/defender factory combination.
Sorry, I had to look that up - you Galleass!
A large, fast, heavily armed three-masted Mediterranean galley of the 16th and 17th centuries. It was propelled by both sails and oars, and had thirty-two seats for rowers, who were generally slaves, six or seven at an oar.
The fortress sounds fantastic, but why obsolete so soon? Seems like it should be around until Feudalism, and first upgrade to musket. Some civs start w/Bronze!
So the obvious thing to do is settle your 2 towns, use chest for fortresses, build a few warriors, then start a settler/defender factory combination.
Sorry, I had to look that up - you Galleass!
A large, fast, heavily armed three-masted Mediterranean galley of the 16th and 17th centuries. It was propelled by both sails and oars, and had thirty-two seats for rowers, who were generally slaves, six or seven at an oar.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
Some thoughts about possible ways to use the extra units:
1) On the first turn, explore the opening area with the Treasure Chests before moving the workers/settlers.
2) Use Treasure Chests to rush Immobile Defenders. If you use them this way I'd suggest not using them right away - save them for a little while until you know which towns will be your early borders.
And then before using them this way, reconsider: do you plan to start by producing a warrior in that same town? If so then it might be better to use the Treasure Chest to rush a warrior and have the town build an Immobile Defender. Total production cost is the same but the warrior can get out there exploring sooner.
3) It might be tempting to send the Treasure Chests exploring. (Shades of Discworld
) They shouldn't pop huts and must run from barbarians but those things are largely true of warriors at Deity level. Nonetheless I wouldn't recommend this because of the final drawback - the Treasure Chest's little legs can't cope with mountains or jungles. If you want to explore with them, at the cost of one additional turn you can convert each one into a warrior who will be a better explorer.
4) Don't delay too long in building the Immobile Defenders where you want them for defense - it won't be long in the game before you want Bronze Working.
5) The Treasure Chests might also be saved for a small production boost when it seems important later on, e.g. to get a Granary finished just before a town grows instead of just after.
1) On the first turn, explore the opening area with the Treasure Chests before moving the workers/settlers.
2) Use Treasure Chests to rush Immobile Defenders. If you use them this way I'd suggest not using them right away - save them for a little while until you know which towns will be your early borders.
And then before using them this way, reconsider: do you plan to start by producing a warrior in that same town? If so then it might be better to use the Treasure Chest to rush a warrior and have the town build an Immobile Defender. Total production cost is the same but the warrior can get out there exploring sooner.
3) It might be tempting to send the Treasure Chests exploring. (Shades of Discworld
) They shouldn't pop huts and must run from barbarians but those things are largely true of warriors at Deity level. Nonetheless I wouldn't recommend this because of the final drawback - the Treasure Chest's little legs can't cope with mountains or jungles. If you want to explore with them, at the cost of one additional turn you can convert each one into a warrior who will be a better explorer.4) Don't delay too long in building the Immobile Defenders where you want them for defense - it won't be long in the game before you want Bronze Working.
5) The Treasure Chests might also be saved for a small production boost when it seems important later on, e.g. to get a Granary finished just before a town grows instead of just after.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Another example of why you're such a good player. A twisted mind at work.
Shame the Chests don't share "The Luggage's" agressive traits.
regards
Ted
First of all, I should qualify this with saying that I have never played deity before.
I think these immobile defenders will encourage me to hold off on bronze working for quite some time. 1/3/1? Thats better than spearmen. So when you discover (or trade for, this is deity) bronze working, your defensive option will cost more and be less powerful. Strange. That definitely changes tech research/trading strategy. I suppose the barb level will be a factor, because barbs are apparently pretty tough on deity. What is their combat advantage? 100%?
Well anyways, I applaud cracker and his team because GOTM 19 is my first GOTM and my first emperor game and Im pretty sure Ill win. Thanks for the incentive to try a jump of two levels! I must say I wasnt planning on playing a deity level GOTM, but with the new Conquest class, I will be there with bells on!
Inudog
I think these immobile defenders will encourage me to hold off on bronze working for quite some time. 1/3/1? Thats better than spearmen. So when you discover (or trade for, this is deity) bronze working, your defensive option will cost more and be less powerful. Strange. That definitely changes tech research/trading strategy. I suppose the barb level will be a factor, because barbs are apparently pretty tough on deity. What is their combat advantage? 100%?
Well anyways, I applaud cracker and his team because GOTM 19 is my first GOTM and my first emperor game and Im pretty sure Ill win. Thanks for the incentive to try a jump of two levels! I must say I wasnt planning on playing a deity level GOTM, but with the new Conquest class, I will be there with bells on!
Inudog
I had considered trying GOTM #20 for real, for laughs, but Cracker has now confirmed that Conquest class is available, and for vanilla
So thanks a million gpt, Cracker, for providing a soft-start option to get noobs like me into the game. I just hope you don't drown under the extra submission load of all those new players like me that you tempt into the GOTM for the first time.
Some thoughts on the specials that Cracker has served up to ease our way into the mad, bad world of a Deity GOTM:
Like MadScot I'd expect to move the two settlers apart, depending on the starting terrain, and maybe settle one in 3950 and the other a turn later to get a three tile separation between the two first cities. Moving the two workers first ought to provide a little additional initial terrain info to help with choosing the Settlers' first movement directions.
The Fortress unit sounds very useful at the start, given the barb strength at Deity. Hoplite/Pike defence for the price of a Warrior can't be bad! That's a 20 shield saving per defender, and having tried to take Hoplite-defended Greek cities with Legionaries I know they will do a good job at least until Knights are around. A lot of my defenders never move anyway except to get upgraded, so their upgrade cost can probably be deferred until Nationalism.
The bad news is they'll probably all be Regulars unless they get promoted, and you can't keep producing them once Bronze arrives, so it seems we need to get our key cities founded and equipped with multiple Fortresses before buying/stealing Bronze. But that delays Iron and therefore Swords, so we could be relying on Warriors longer than we would otherwise.
As usual there will have to be some middle way. So maybe we get ten towns up and defended by two Fortresses before Bronze? (I'm an optimist!) Twenty static Pikemen for 10 shields each = 200 shields saved on Spears, and a lot of gold we don't need to spend on Spear->Pike upgrades.
Of course Fortresses will eventually cost to upgrade to Muskets/Rifles so we've only deferred the upgrade expense, but we'll have Leonardo's by then, won't we?
Also, they'll only upgrade if we have a Barracks in the same city, so Sun Tzu would be even more useful than normal. Alternatively we could just build new Rifles. It's probably not worth disbanding Fortresses by that time for the pitance we'd get back (one shield each?). They still add one more line of defence at very little cost.
I suspect that the Treasure Chests should be used as soon as possible since they aren't very likely to get any more valuable with time. Yes, a specific opportunity for use might present itself, such as SirPleb's suggestion about accelerating a Granary to beat the next pop growth point. But building a unit earlier always increases the chances of earlier contact or earlier barb defeat or building a more valuable world map. So a couple of Fortresses and a Warrior as soon as the two first towns are founded, maybe? After that, one town gets a Granary and then builds Settlers and the other starts on Warriors as scouts and escorts.
We Spaniards are Commercial/Religious, if I recall correctly, so we get Ceremonial Burial and Alphabet as starter techs? Cheap temples and good bargaining techs, plus reduced corruption and extra commerce when (if?) we get bigger. The extra starting gold will also help with tech trading as long as the Fortresses prevent it being pillaged by the first swarm of barbs.
The Galleass's (Galliassae?) I saw during GOTM 19 were vicious machines if you let them get near you, but the AI didn't make very effective use of them. If you can get them next to a target their rate of fire allows them to bombard and then attack an enemy ship in one turn, or they can attack two targets. Careful positioning and trap-setting seems to be required as they don't move very fast. They can also make a mess of on-shore improvements, and the AI doesn't seem to be good at using mobile cannon/artillary to defend against bombardment from coastal tiles. Rome used them as Galleon escorts in my GOTM19, which was a painfully slow way to move their troops around the map. If I get that far in the game, and the map is appropriate, it will be interesting to find out how to use them effectively.
rabies
Happy Dad
AlanH
I think on Deity, you will be hard pressed to get either Leonardo's or Sun Tzu's before the AI...much less both. Just keep that in mind.
I think on Deity, you will be hard pressed to get either Leonardo's or Sun Tzu's before the AI...much less both. Just keep that in mind.
Zwingli
Prince
There is no combat advantage either way on Deity (all lower levels have some kind of advantage against the barbarians). However, Deity barbs are indeed very tough because without combat bonuses barbs have a decent chance of surviving to cause economic damage.
Since this class will start with two workers, it may be a good idea to assign one worker to each of the starting settlers. That way, the first two cities can both work improved tiles right from the start. If you settle both cities close to each other, they can share the improvements made by both workers without many wasted worker turns. The treasure chests should probably be used early when 10 shields is a significant boost in production.
Overall, the conquest class bonuses seem to balance out the (similar) starting unit bonuses of the Deity AI civs. The difficulty should be significantly greater than Emperor due to the 40% AI cost discount, but much less daunting than normal Deity. The unit bonuses (especially the fortress) will at least limit painful conquest defeats in the Ancient Era, but if you lose focus on the economy or on offensive units the other civs can still jump ahead.
@SirPleb: Thanks for your lateral thoughts on the options here.
Re. Delayed Fortresses
I don't think I'd want to delay putting Fortresses in my first cities, given what I've heard about Deity barbs. As the civ grows and we get HBR or even Warrior Code it can start to build counter-offensive units to defend the borders and avoid Stalingrads in the frontier towns, but while it's small you need in-town defences. Also, as you say, this cheap unit won't be available for long because we'll need to move up to swords. Once we have Bronze we'll be able to push new spears out to the border towns where mobility can be useful to confront oncoming hoards before they hit town.
Re. Exploring Treasure Chests. Nice idea, but the best view is from the mountain tops where 'chests can't breathe'. Also, I bet a wandering barb would just love to walk off with our treasure. I think you're right when you suggest turning them into Warriors (or Fortresses so that we can build Warriors) who can move more freely.
Re. Delayed Fortresses
I don't think I'd want to delay putting Fortresses in my first cities, given what I've heard about Deity barbs. As the civ grows and we get HBR or even Warrior Code it can start to build counter-offensive units to defend the borders and avoid Stalingrads in the frontier towns, but while it's small you need in-town defences. Also, as you say, this cheap unit won't be available for long because we'll need to move up to swords. Once we have Bronze we'll be able to push new spears out to the border towns where mobility can be useful to confront oncoming hoards before they hit town.
Re. Exploring Treasure Chests. Nice idea, but the best view is from the mountain tops where 'chests can't breathe'. Also, I bet a wandering barb would just love to walk off with our treasure. I think you're right when you suggest turning them into Warriors (or Fortresses so that we can build Warriors) who can move more freely.
Sorry, tongue slightly in cheek there! I think some of them will get pensioned off, others will upgrade where possible.
On a replay of GOTM 19 (because I screwed up the ancient era with a couple of stoopid errors, and I wanted to see what I could achieve with a better start) I did manage to get both, but I get the impression that GOTM 19 was an easier-than-normal Emperor, and of course Deity is something else again.
Txurce
Deity
Building one or two Immobile Defenders in each city - which presumably also addresses garrisoning - will make it much less likely that players will cripple themselves building large numbers of defensive units. As such, it promotes aggressive exploration, and then expansion with settlers and offensive units. It also creates an interesting risk/benefit choice as to when to research or trade for bronze working, since the advantage of putting it off also stalls the acquisition of iron working.
The Gold Chests' most immediate and obvious use is to generate one-move builds of the first three Immobile Defenders. The capital and second city could safely build two or three warriors for quick exploration, then rush an ID for garrisoning or barb-defense purposes. These cities could also produce one explorer, rush the ID, and then start a granary. (A pre-settler granary in the capital isn't necessarily a good idea on deity, but might be with the extra-settler benefit.) The third chest
could be saved for a just-in-time production boost to a granary, resulting in an optimally timed settler build, or ot could accompany the first built settler to its settlement tile.
The Galleass is an exciting wild-card, as it would dominate the seas from Gunpowder until Magnetism. In the best-case scenario - a map where they're useful, and a player whose research is reasonably current - such a navy could theoretically harrass not only enemy shipping, but actually win favorable peace terms by continued bombardment of coastal towns and improvements. A couple of galleasses parked next to an enemy city could easily shell it , turn in and turn out, with little chance of redlining. (It could even lead to a two-step Viking variation, if the city's units are suffficciently damaged.) Of course, this would require a concerted longterm strategic decision to devote precious resources to the navy, and constitute a production risk. Map limitations aside, this strategy will be less exciting to players who reach gunpowder right as the AI researches magnetism. But even then, the AI doesn't build a lot of frigates, and the marauding galleasses could still raise a meaningful amount of hell. None of the above takes potential late-medieval exploration into account. But if the map does have a second-stage, "imperialism" component, galleasses could be a great tool for the trailing human player to hamstring the AI's settlement efforts, with a concerted effort to sink their New World-bound ships.
The aggressive use of the Galleass could dovetail perfectly with the UU, in that one forestalls AI expansion, while the other identifies where expansion should occur. The gold chests could help with an early cultural assault, as a temple could be built in 3950BC, giving the Spanish a huge cultural edge, thanks to their religious trait. I don't see any other advantage that the bonuses provide in conjunction with the religious trait, or any connection between any of the bonuses and the commercial trait (as the commercial trait doesn't kick in until cities grow to a point where the extra worker and extra treasury recede in importance).
The Gold Chests' most immediate and obvious use is to generate one-move builds of the first three Immobile Defenders. The capital and second city could safely build two or three warriors for quick exploration, then rush an ID for garrisoning or barb-defense purposes. These cities could also produce one explorer, rush the ID, and then start a granary. (A pre-settler granary in the capital isn't necessarily a good idea on deity, but might be with the extra-settler benefit.) The third chest
could be saved for a just-in-time production boost to a granary, resulting in an optimally timed settler build, or ot could accompany the first built settler to its settlement tile.
The Galleass is an exciting wild-card, as it would dominate the seas from Gunpowder until Magnetism. In the best-case scenario - a map where they're useful, and a player whose research is reasonably current - such a navy could theoretically harrass not only enemy shipping, but actually win favorable peace terms by continued bombardment of coastal towns and improvements. A couple of galleasses parked next to an enemy city could easily shell it , turn in and turn out, with little chance of redlining. (It could even lead to a two-step Viking variation, if the city's units are suffficciently damaged.) Of course, this would require a concerted longterm strategic decision to devote precious resources to the navy, and constitute a production risk. Map limitations aside, this strategy will be less exciting to players who reach gunpowder right as the AI researches magnetism. But even then, the AI doesn't build a lot of frigates, and the marauding galleasses could still raise a meaningful amount of hell. None of the above takes potential late-medieval exploration into account. But if the map does have a second-stage, "imperialism" component, galleasses could be a great tool for the trailing human player to hamstring the AI's settlement efforts, with a concerted effort to sink their New World-bound ships.
The aggressive use of the Galleass could dovetail perfectly with the UU, in that one forestalls AI expansion, while the other identifies where expansion should occur. The gold chests could help with an early cultural assault, as a temple could be built in 3950BC, giving the Spanish a huge cultural edge, thanks to their religious trait. I don't see any other advantage that the bonuses provide in conjunction with the religious trait, or any connection between any of the bonuses and the commercial trait (as the commercial trait doesn't kick in until cities grow to a point where the extra worker and extra treasury recede in importance).
The new units look like they're borderline on being too much advantage, but to play my first deity after getting off to a 0-3 start in GOTM I'll take any boost that is available. 
The fortress (immobile defender) units look like a clear message that extra defense is needed for this game. They also help reinforce targeted research, and tech trading by making bronze working a bad idea. Holding off to acquire bronze and iron should make them cheaper if more civs have them at the time we want. This unit will also hilight the strategic progression of military units from exploration (warrior) to defense (ID) to offence (sword). Go for powerful offence prior to getting a good defence at your peril...
Edit: Having to wait for IW will also help develop our ability to predict where iron will appear, ensuring that we develop so that hills and mountains are inside the radius.
It's interesting that the treasure chests create 10 shields, the same amount as chopping forest. You have to be careful to time it properly so that more than 10 shields are remaining on current production, or up to 9 of the shields would be wasted.
There is something unclear about the galeass unit -- what kinds of water squares can it traverse (coast vs sea vs ocean)? Is it affected by the Great Lighthouse in the same way as standard naval units? Is it strictly military like a frigate, or can it carry passengers?
The fortress (immobile defender) units look like a clear message that extra defense is needed for this game. They also help reinforce targeted research, and tech trading by making bronze working a bad idea. Holding off to acquire bronze and iron should make them cheaper if more civs have them at the time we want. This unit will also hilight the strategic progression of military units from exploration (warrior) to defense (ID) to offence (sword). Go for powerful offence prior to getting a good defence at your peril...
Edit: Having to wait for IW will also help develop our ability to predict where iron will appear, ensuring that we develop so that hills and mountains are inside the radius.
It's interesting that the treasure chests create 10 shields, the same amount as chopping forest. You have to be careful to time it properly so that more than 10 shields are remaining on current production, or up to 9 of the shields would be wasted.
There is something unclear about the galeass unit -- what kinds of water squares can it traverse (coast vs sea vs ocean)? Is it affected by the Great Lighthouse in the same way as standard naval units? Is it strictly military like a frigate, or can it carry passengers?
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
For those who haven't played deity before, note that the AI starts with 12 military units at the start! So you better build some of those 3 defense immobile defenders while they are so cheap. (and pay tribute unless you are prepared to deal with the AI's fury).
If I was playing this level with the free units, I might consider using the treasure chests to build a very early temple in the second city. Your capital will get culture expansion from the palace, but the second city will need a culture expansion, and if you use the 3 treasure chests to rush a temple (30 shields for religious), you can get a nice little culture lead (that will last a little while, at least).
If I was playing this level with the free units, I might consider using the treasure chests to build a very early temple in the second city. Your capital will get culture expansion from the palace, but the second city will need a culture expansion, and if you use the 3 treasure chests to rush a temple (30 shields for religious), you can get a nice little culture lead (that will last a little while, at least).
Are you sure? In the Info Center it says "On Deity level, the AI usually gets 4 or 5 free units, such as 2 archers, 1 spearman, and 1 worker."
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Well, that is out of date...or nobody bothered to check the editor.
Monarch: 2 defensive units, 1 offensive unit
Emperor: 4 defensive units, 2 offensive units, 1 worker
Deity: 8 defensive units, 4 offensive units, 2 workers, AND 1 settler!
What units they are given depends on the techs they start with. They get all warriors if they don't start with Bronze working (spearman) or warrior code (archers).
Free Unit Support:
Monarch 4, +1 for each additional city
Emperor 8, +2 for each additional city
Deity 16, +4 for each additional city
Maximum anarchy length (If non-religious):
Monarch 4
Emperor 3
Deity 2
Cost Factor (what it costs to build stuff and grow) and AI to AI trade rate (discounts they give each other)
Monarch 9/140
Emperor 8/150
Deity 6/160
What 6 for deity means, is that it only costs them 6 shields to build a 10 shield unit, and 12 food to grow instead of 20. Trade ratio means they give each other bigger discounts on higher levels when they trade with each other.
Monarch: 2 defensive units, 1 offensive unit
Emperor: 4 defensive units, 2 offensive units, 1 worker
Deity: 8 defensive units, 4 offensive units, 2 workers, AND 1 settler!
What units they are given depends on the techs they start with. They get all warriors if they don't start with Bronze working (spearman) or warrior code (archers).
Free Unit Support:
Monarch 4, +1 for each additional city
Emperor 8, +2 for each additional city
Deity 16, +4 for each additional city
Maximum anarchy length (If non-religious):
Monarch 4
Emperor 3
Deity 2
Cost Factor (what it costs to build stuff and grow) and AI to AI trade rate (discounts they give each other)
Monarch 9/140
Emperor 8/150
Deity 6/160
What 6 for deity means, is that it only costs them 6 shields to build a 10 shield unit, and 12 food to grow instead of 20. Trade ratio means they give each other bigger discounts on higher levels when they trade with each other.
Id build half a granary in the city best suited for a settler factory and send one or maybe both workers to improve it. Granary is 60 shields right? So you will need 30 extra shields, that should be 10 turns. With a forest, proper calculation and both workers on the job one should get the granary before the city grows to population 2 in turn 11 of the game. Now thats a great advantage that should help the initial expansion. The other town would be used to build some warriors to defend, and explore.
There's only one trick here: you need pottery! Can't remember but you should be able to get it in 15-20 turns so you could delay everything by 5-10 turns (two or three warriors)
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Very useful post.
Thanks
Ted
Thanks
Ted
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