Goz-12 - 5CC - Large map - Space Race

[Whomp]

OK I have the save and will play it tomorrow.

 

[Whomp]

Pre turn: See that we can get both horses and salt for a price. Decide to make a deal for horses, MA with Germans against the English. Turn up lux to 10% and science to 60%.

IT Our deal for wines and 11gpt is up. I renew it for 172g (won't do straight gpt).
860 AD Cancel our gems deal with Aztecs so we can turn off lux.

IT Wow. The germans raze the city south of Liverpool.
870 AD Sieze Liverpool with all our buchets. Damage 3 muskets. Lose 2 swords and a MI but razed the city. We get the salt inside our borders and 8 new slaves. Upgrade a buchet to a hwacha and change a couple builds to hwachas and horseman. Horseman to upgrade to cavs.

IT Brighton falls to the Germans. A Man o War pillage our hill road at Bouncing bucket.
880 Move some buchets into Nampo for upgrades. Upgrade a pike to musket for 90g. Move some other units to the saltpeter and fortify. Move a hwacha towards Bouncing Bucket so we can bombard the MoWs. The slaves move to improve some tiles.

IT See a couple German cavs take on a English Cav.
890 Oh my..the Germans are pounding the English. They also have infantry running around.

Cut a deal with the Celt for iron at 40gpt. This will allow us to upgrade all our buchets and get MT in 5.

IT Germans moving all over. They also move a settler to the Salt spot where they razed Liverpool. They also sign a MPP with the Iroquois. Then sign a MA vs. Russia.
900 Move towards the English coastal city north of Nampo.

IT Aztecs and Russians MA vs. America. Hittites and Aztecs MA vs. Babs.
910 Move around. Notice everyone but the Hittites are running either Fascism or monarchy. I notice I can turn down lux for a turn and still finish all five builds all the same. Saves us a few coins.

IT Babs and Americans make peace. Russia and Celts make peace. Watch the Germans roll the Brits. Hopefully this will leave an opening to get a furs colony.
920 Move towards our target.

IT The Brits are dropping like a house of cards to the germans as York falls. We get our opening for the Furs. Byz ask for TM and 25g. Okee dokee.
930 hurry a horse for 68g since we can get MT next turn.

IT Russians and Babs make peace. Warwick falls to the Germans. Byz and Iroquois MA vs. Russians. Byz and Iroquois MA vs England. Get the military academy request.
940 Set up a fur colony where the Germans borders aren't covering. Rojo starts the academy due in 18. Try bombarding Magadan and miss on all 5 hwachas. Fire the spotter. Start the Mil Acad. in Rojo. Turn off research so we can upgrade our horses to cavs. We have 82g in the bank and 217gpt. Run 1 scientist on physics. Cripes...the Iroquois have 50k gold in the bank. 6 more turns on the MA with the Germans against the Hittites and 11 (with horses) versus the English.

IT Holy Cow...the Brits send a cav out of the darkness north of Magadan and kill a MI. A LB pops out of Magadan but loses to another MI. Russians cancel our ROP but send units through our territory anyhow.
950 Bombard Magadan and hit on 3 of 5. Still no GA.... Knock one musket to redline and the other is 2/3. Attack with a MI no dent. A 2nd takes the musket and finish with elite win. The city is razed. Upgrade two horses (150 a pop) to cavs. Oops I should've short rushed a LB in the capital since we're at a odd number for the cav. Whomoever plays the next save should rush a musket so there's no waste.

Summary
I've never played the Koreans. Does anyone know how to kick off their GA? We're going to need lots of arty and cav armies to start picking off some of the big guys. The Iroquois, Aztecs and Germans are huge.

 

[Bucephalus]

I've never played the Koreans. Does anyone know how to kick off their GA?

Well, I've never played them either, but I imagine that you actually have to kill something with lethal bombard.

 

[zerksees]

I agree with Bucephalus on the golden age. Bucephalus you will get to try it since you are next. Let's hope the English last 20 turns so we can get some techs for peace.

Nice work Whomp - glad to see we can get some gpt for our iron.

 

[Bucephalus]

@ Whomp:

I'm getting a message saying it's an invalid file; could you upload it again please? Thanks.

 

[zerksees]

We're going to need lots of arty and cav armies to start picking off some of the big guys. The Iroquois, Aztecs and Germans are huge.

Actually cav army since we can only have one. And if we play our cards right, we'll only have to fight one of the huge AI

 

[Whomp]

Sorry Buce. I'll load another save but we'll have to wait till I get home.

 

[Bucephalus]

Sorry Buce. I'll load another save but we'll have to wait till I get home.

No hurry, mate.

Edit: No need, Whomp; I've downloaded it again and it's fine.

 

[Bucephalus]

I agree with Bucephalus on the golden age. Bucephalus you will get to try it since you are next. Let's hope the English last 20 turns so we can get some techs for peace.

I've formulated a plan which should achieve both of these objectives, but I want to run it past you both first in case I'm missing something.

England is down to it's last three cities, but fortunately for us, Reading is isolated in the NE corner of our territory. My plan is to blockade Reading - which I can do by occupying just three tiles - for the 10 turns required to honour our alliance with Germany, at which time we can either get a tech from Germany for an extension to the alliance + gpt., or tech for peace from England. In the meantime, if I reduce Reading to it's last defender, there is every chance that the H'wacha's can destroy that defender, triggering our GA. We can maintain this position indefinitely until our objectives are achieved.

Also, our alliance with Germany against the Hittites expires in 5 turns; should I renew it for a tech, if possible?

Finally, is there anyone to whom I should not cave?

 

[zerksees]

Your plan on England and our golden age is excellent. Actually it is more than excellent - wicked comes to mind.

If there are war weariness issues I suppose we could just finish England right after renewing with Germany and getting the tech. If we choose peace for techs from England we just step out of the way and let the Germans wreck them. I would prefer getting the tech from Germany, but am guessing we might get more than one tech from England. If we do not start the GA now, we might be able to use the AI railroads and ROP to wage war on America or Byzantine to start the GA.

Regarding Hittites, renewal is OK with me as long as it is paying enough to offset any war weariness we might get (would value of 20 gpt be enough?)

I would think we could ignore big threats from the Americans, Byzantines, and of course Hittites and England. A demand of 30 gold and territory map is not worth going to war over. Big demands are the ones to stand up to.

Also, if we get a great leader I think we should suicide the army and build a cav army

Whomp - your thoughts?

 

[Bucephalus]

If there are war weariness issues I suppose we could just finish England right after renewing with Germany and getting the tech.

Hmm, wouldn't that further devalue our Rep?

Regarding Hittites, renewal is OK with me as long as it is paying enough to offset any war weariness we might get (would value of 20 gpt be enough?)

I'm not sure if you understood me correctly; maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I assumed Germany would want us to pay gpt on our side of the alliance if they were to give a tech.

I doubt if WW will be an issue at this stage, since we are not actually doing any fighting with the Hittites, but if it is we are grossing plenty of gpt., enough to spare 10% lux.

Also, if we get a great leader I think we should suicide the army and build a cav army

This brings up a query that I have. We are building the Military Academy; is it a pre-build or are we intending to build an Army?

 

[Whomp]

I think Germany would want us to pay for their fight against the Hittites. I'm not sure the Hittites are long for this world either since they're the only ones we have a tech advantage on.

Buce I'd try to kill one unit by drawing it out, lethal bombard it, get the GA and sue for peace if that's possible. Lethal bombarding behind the city walls may be tough. You may have to sacrifice a MI to do this and follow with lethal bombard from a tile behind.

I think we have to develop the Mil. Acad. because our armies will need to get stronger as we go....from cav to tank I'd think. We can't count on getting a MGL imo...too random.

 

[Bucephalus]

Buce I'd try to kill one unit by drawing it out, lethal bombard it, get the GA and sue for peace if that's possible.

It's not an option while we have 10 turns left of our alliance with Germany, so that decision will pass to Zerksees.

But what I'm thinking - and this may be a bit ambitious - is that if England are willing to give more than one tech for peace, all they have that is of any use, is Physics; however, if we can get Physics from Germany to continue the war, then we can continue the blockade (keeping England alive) for a further 20 turns maximum (after all Germany may give them peace early), then they (England) may give Theory of Gravity and Magnetism for peace, especially as we will be camped out outside what will by then be their Capital. Ok, I know that's a lot of ifs, but we have nothing to lose by trying, and much to gain.

 

[Bucephalus]

One further question:

If we get lucky and get our GA quickly, should I crank up Science spending, and research Physics for ourselves?

 

[Whomp]

OK cut off the sue for peace part but I'd still try to draw out one of their units. It will be the easiest ways to send rockets at them.
btw the h'wacha rates up there with dromons for coolness when used in battle. The rockets are like shooting off bottle rockets.

Ratcheting up research would be a good idea since we will still have excess to upgrade the horses to cavs.

 

[zerksees]

Hmm, wouldn't that further devalue our Rep?

The problem with the gpt deal was the iron that we were not able to deliver – not the fact that our gpt recipient ceased to exist, so a gpt for tech deal with England shortly before their demise will not affect us. That was the point of my prior discussion.

I'm not sure if you understood me correctly; maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I assumed Germany would want us to pay gpt on our side of the alliance if they were to give a tech.

Let me explain. Typically I will raise and lower the gpt to see how much value the alliance is worth. First you set the gpt at just enough to buy the tech with the alliance. Then take the alliance off the table and add 20 gpt to our offer. If he would accept then you know the alliance is worth less than 20 gpt to him. I want to know the value of the alliance to Germany and this one way to do it. Does this make sense?

We are building the Military Academy; is it a pre-build or are we intending to build an Army?

In addition to Whomp’s reason, I might add that it gives us something to do with our extra shield making capacity, and adds a tiny bit more culture.

Regarding Hittites – my guess is they are on an island or they would already be dead.

On the techs – can we get physics on our own research before the time comes to deal with Elizabeth – or can we buy it outright from someone? Furthermore I should hope it would be less than 20 turns before we get theory of gravity and magnetism (though she will have next age techs for us too no doubt). Keeping here around might create some opportunity later though, because here research has to be basically stopped right now and she will have techs we don’t – creating some trade opportunities in the future.

If we get a GA, you can use your judgement on researching physics. As you know I lean towards buying but here I have a hard time deciding the risk of a small civs (ours) holding so much gold that the AI could just take. 4-5 turns of high research would be OK with me.

I still think you could draw a unit out by leaving a weak unit on a pillaged tile next to their capital, and surrounding it with other units to block the Germans. Obviously you will need to cover more than 3 tiles for a short time

This game is getting fun now.

 

[Bucephalus]

Let me explain. Typically I will raise and lower the gpt to see how much value the alliance is worth. First you set the gpt at just enough to buy the tech with the alliance. Then take the alliance off the table and add 20 gpt to our offer. If he would accept then you know the alliance is worth less than 20 gpt to him. I want to know the value of the alliance to Germany and this one way to do it. Does this make sense?.

Ah, yes - the penny drops! However, I thought we were unable to buy techs now for gpt unless it was tied to an alliance or peace treaty, in which case they would "never accept this deal"? Or have I got it wrong?

 

[zerksees]

I thought we were unable to buy techs now for gpt unless it was tied to an alliance or peace treaty, in which case they would "never accept this deal"? Or have I got it wrong?

How quickly I forget! Since we were able to sell our iron for 40 gpt, I must have assumed our rep had been repaired. If it automatically switches to "they would never accept such a deal" obviously it is too early to try it, and you will just have to use the military alliance to "open the door" to the trade. (Or you could see if they will give us gold for the military alliance - that would be another way to determine the net value)

So to answer the original question (I think?), assuming there is no way to put a value on the miliatry alliance, renewing a military alliance to get a tech is OK. I don't think it will hurt us.

Buying physics from Germany (or someone beside England) and getting the other two from England in peace is what I would like to see, but whatever works.

I am thinking our trade rep can't possibly be repaired yet but maybe it is better. You can test this if you like - try to trade 1 gpt for some amount of gold (maybe 10?) from an AI. Last time I tried all I could get was 3 gold. Maybe we can do better than that now.

 

[Bucephalus]

Okay, I'm pretty much clear on my options now. I expect to be able to play it in the next couple of days.

 

[Whomp]

Interestingly enough, the Celts would offer their gpt but would not give any gold lump sum in the deal for iron. The Germans would not accept gpt from us but would take lump sum gold for the furs (before I planted the colony). I'm not sure our rep is clean yet. MA's and peace treaty negotiations will be the best way to help repair this.

Somehow we need some of the titans (Germany, Aztecs and Iroquois) to get into a tussle. Iroquois have 50k+ gold.