Goz-12 - 5CC - Large map - Space Race

[Whomp]

I'm afraid our rep was trashed once France was eliminated.

My recollection is when you export resources to the AI regardless of whether it's gpt or goods the rep is trashed if the AI is eliminated. Generally, once you break a gpt deal you'll never be able to make gpt deals again.

The only alternatives I know is renegotiate peace treaties (at a big premium for deity) or sign MA's with gpt as part of the deal.

 

[zerksees]

My recollection is when you export resources to the AI regardless of whether it's gpt or goods the rep is trashed if the AI is eliminated. Generally, once you break a gpt deal you'll never be able to make gpt deals again.

The reason I brought it up is a strategy Moonsinger often used. Read this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1880136#post1880136
You have to read a couple posts forward but it seems to me she is not concerned if an AI goes belly up while she is paying gpt. The only difference I can see is that we were trading iron per turn and not just gpt.

If my suspicions are correct, the AI will forgive us after a while, and our credit rating will improve. There are some kinds of gpt treachery that won't be forgiven, but this one might be forgivable after 20 turns or something. Maybe I am full of wishful thinking here?

I have played 8 turns so far trying to find a way to catch up in tech by trade, and I also have been building and disbanding trebs to rush improvements in Bouncing Bucket and Nampo, but I think pointy stick research might be also in order here. If we can whack one Russian and one English city, we can gain saltpeter and horses, and maybe a tech or two. Both of them have lots of enemies, so they should not have too many units. Maybe its suicide, but we could use 15-20 turns to prepare, and go after them one at a time.

 

[Whomp]

I agree that it wouldn't have been an issue to trade gpt for techs however my understanding is your rep is toast when a resource trade (iron in this case) is lost. The only way to do gpt is MA's and peace treaty renegotiation.

On the warfront don't forget our UU is very powerful and will help us acquire the salt and horses.

 

[zerksees]

Thanks Whomp. So the resource trade cutoff also ruins the trade rep if the civ goes extinct (I knew cutting off was bad - but the permanent cutoff I was not sure about). Well whats one more challenge on top of the steep hill ahead?

Your assessment on the Hwacha is excellent - we should beeline for it. I can't recall what we need to build that Hwacha. It has lethal bombard so lets build a whole huge stack, get our golden age and do some damage.

 

[Phaedo]

lurker's comment: If you are building Hwacha, it should be the same as a canon (therefore Metalurgy). The atribute always seemed powerful. I have a penchant for Korea so I would love to see it in action. Does anyone happen to know the chance of success for the lethal kill attribute?

 

[Bucephalus]

I can't recall what we need to build that Hwacha. It has lethal bombard so lets build a whole huge stack, get our golden age and do some damage.

Salt, I believe.

 

[Whomp]

Buce is correct we need salt and bad.

From my recollection the English have a source close by. We need to grab it and colonize it. Setting up a MA with one of the "also rans" who are fighting against them may allow us to trade gpt for a tech as well.

So our army and upgrading units seems to be in order.

 

[Bucephalus]

Buce is correct we need salt and bad.

From my recollection the English have a source close by. We need to grab it and colonize it. Setting up a MA with one of the "also rans" who are fighting against them may allow us to trade gpt for a tech as well.

So our army and upgrading units seems to be in order.

There were a couple of sources available for trade during my turnset; if we can get MT, might it not be an idea to trade for 20 turns, and get some Cavs?

 

[zerksees]

Trading for it might be hard since our rep is damaged. I'll fish around to see what it will cost to trade for it. If we could trade for it I would like to go for Russia first to get horses but I think we have a trade or ROP or something with them - we should wait until it is over. Also we need mil trad for cavs and we do not have it yet.

The saltpeter is 1N of Liverpool, which is basically south of Nampo. If we raze Liverpool our border expansion might grab the saltpeter - no colony needed.

Will a cavalry attack a sword army?

 

[Bucephalus]

Trading for it might be hard since our rep is damaged

I think it might be OK. We damaged our rep by failing to keep up a twenty turn deal for 'hard' goods; trading per-turn goods for per-turn goods could be different.

Will a cavalry attack a sword army?

They attacked Tank Armies with Cavalry in 'Madagascar', so who knows?

 

[zerksees]

They attacked Tank Armies with Cavalry in 'Madagascar', so who knows?

I must clarify. I wonder if cavs will attack a healthy sword army in the open? In Madagascar, they were probably attacking units defending a city. In the open, the AI will not attack a unit if it has less than 10% chance of winning with any one unit. (If the units are in a city, then the AI will attack at odds lower than 10%.) This is a huge flaw as a cav army can galavant past a stack of 100 AI cavalry without incident, and it allows me to go after the cities and ignore the scores of units wandering around looking for something to attack. I used it a little in the Madagascar game on the final conquests, leaving one healthy army at the top of any stack to ensure its safety. The reason I ask in the first place is I don't have as much experience with armies of units that defend at 2.

If it works we build a big stack of Hwachas (30+?), a few med inf and put them under a sword army and go raze cities. It will be important to keep the army healthy so the odds don't go above 10%.

 

[Bucephalus]

I must clarify. I wonder if cavs will attack a healthy sword army in the open? In Madagascar, they were probably attacking units defending a city.

No, if you look back over my turnlog, you'll see that they attacked our pillaging Armies; one was even destroyed.

Edit: Though, I have to say that it was unique in my experience for that to happen.

Edit again: England and Russia have both been at war for a long time, with multiple foes; if they had any Cavalry (or Cossacks) left, they wouldn't be sending LB's at each other.

 

[Bartleby]

lurker's comment: AI attacking armies: If the AI has no "valid" target and you have AIPatrol on, they can accidentally bump into armies until they become "valid" targets.

 

[Pentium]

Hey guys, long time no see and welcome to you, Bucephalus

I've recently formatted my disk, but then I realized I can't find my Civ3 CD (along with GalCiv2, they must both be in a secret place), so I've been out of Civ for a while. I've also lost interest in it after winning on Sid (just once, it was a pretty lucky game, one out of many I've tried), and as you may have seen I was very inactive on the forums (now I keep getting that message to post again ). I also switched to linux in the meantime, and I'm considering downloading it and seeing how well does it run under emulation.

I'm glad this game moved on, although I most likely won't be able to participate in it anymore. I wish the best of luck to you guys, hoping you'll pull this out.

Just one more thing:

Now the AI is hesitant to trade. Apparently our credit rating has dropped, and I can only get 3 gold from an AI for a 1 gpt payment. Will the AI get over this or are we doomed to paying gold the rest of the game?

If you can still get 3gold for 1gpt, do it with at least one AI. It will improve your relations, but more important it will improve your credit rating once 20 turns pass. As long as you can make gpt deals, you're fine.

Keep up the good work, guys!

Edit: looking at my avatar again made me laugh

 

[zerksees]

Started gpt with a couple AI, write-up later. Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27707/Goz12_850AD.SAV

 

[Bucephalus]

@ Zerksees:

This clarifies the Army debate for us:

Lurker:

The AI will not attack armies in the fieled as long as they not redlined or like a loser. That is an archer army will be attacked by cavs or rifles, even at full health, but a knight army will not. If they are parked next to a town, they could get bombarded.

The thing you can see is a patrol unit bump into an army that it would not otherwise attack. IOW if you have the NoAiPatrol flag on there is a chance a stray unit will bump into the army and then attack. With the flag off, that does not happen either.

Once you move any army into a town, it could be attacked by any type of unit.

Note once bombers come into play, all bets are off as they will bombard the army and then attack it.

 

[zerksees]

Hey Pentium – glad to see you checking in. Sorry you won’t be active on the rest of this game, but no problem. I was thinking the exact same thing about the gpt for 3 gold. Please check in from time to time, and don’t be afraid to give us your perspective/advice/observations. If you ever do want to get back in you are always welcome.

Bucephalus - thanks I keep forgetting about that "feature"

Pre-flight
All but Byzantine have mil trad
Made peace with them paying 20 gold
MM looks good. Did cahnge Rojo to build longbow

IBT
Byz and Celts make peace, France and Iro make peace
Russian units heading east
Notice there is some type of fighting in our view – just about every turn

760 AD
Scouring the corners of the trade screen for some trades to no avail. No other action.

IBT
Pyong: colosseum -> treb
Rojo: longbow -> treb

770 AD
Bad news: Byz now have military tradition. We still need it so let lone scientist keep at it.

IBT
England and Byz make peace
Germany and Iro MA vs Aztecs
Renew dyes trade with Iro giving 6 gpt and 57 gold
I may have missed our builds here

780 AD
Our gpt payments to Germany are ending in 2 turns. It’s all I have

IBT
France and Aztecs MA vs America
France and Iro sign MA vs Aztecs. (This should have been a clue that France was in trouble)
Seoul: longbow -> treb
Bouncing Bucket: colosseum -> university

790 AD
Disband some trebs to rush colosseum in Nampo (may not have been a good idea based on our later discussions)

IBT
England and Celts make peace
Nampo: colosseum -> university
Seoul: treb -> treb
Rojo: treb -> treb

800 AD
Buy Astronomy from Germany, give alliance vs Hittites, gems, 45 gpt and 336 gold
No deals on physics, and they all have it exc. Hittites.
America has 6 cities left. France has 3 cities left
I have been working on improving city sizes and therefore gpt. Irrigating a couple tiles near BB and Nampo so they can get to size 12.

IBT
France and Iro MA vs Russia
Seoul: treb -> treb

810 AD
France has 1 city left. I can’t get them to sell me any techs for gpt. MM stuff around so we can get 79 gpt to buy 4 workers, 258 gold and printing press. I know they are dead as they have lots of enemies and nowhere to hide. This was the best deal I could get. If I had only figured it out one turn earlier before I had made that deal with the Germans…

IBT
Russia and Hittites sign trade embargo against us!
Lizzies’ rampaging forces destroy the French – and our trading rep.
Iro and Aztecs make peace
Germans extort 35 gold and territory map
Germany and Iro MA vs Celts and MA vs England
Pyong and Rojo each make a treb and start another

820 AD
It is confirmed. Our gpt is near worthless. We still had 8 turns left on our iron trade with France. Oh well.

IBT
Babylon and Hittites embargo against us – where are they getting gold to sign these embargos?
Seoul must have finished something and started a pike

830 AD
Damage control:
Start a couple gpt trades. Buy 3 gold from Germany for 1 gpt, and the same with Babylon

IBT
Watch a Man-o-War sink a Russian galleon. If England has not already had their golden age…
Renew buying silks from the Celts paying 11 gpt. I am surprised and glad that worked
Pyong and Rojo each make a treb and start another

840 AD
No improvement on the trading front.

IBT
Aztecs and Russia make peace
Seoul: pike -> pike

850 AD
Nothing much

I notice we can buy saltpeter from the Germans, and they will accept gpt as part of the deal. As soon as I put a tech on the table they won’t think about it.

I also notice that the English have saltpeter at Liverpool and Norwich.

Next turnset:
Bouncing Bucket will have a university in 1 turn. Check the science – it might be worth putting some money to speed up mil trad.
Continue the preparations for England invasion. We need to protect our iron on the border, and prepare to invade. For invasion I would suggest coming in on the mountain that has the saltpeter, and take/raze Liverpool first. Also at some point we need to buy some saltpeter and upgrade our trebs to Hwachas.

Whomp you are next

 

[Bucephalus]

Thanks for the welcome, Pentium; are you sure you can't manage a turn or two?

 

[Pentium]

If I find my CD I'll be able to play full sets, but as it is now I'm just going to download CA2 and look at your saves.

Finally, I have to fulfill my lurking duty:
lurker's comment: Pictures please!

 

[zerksees]

lurker's comment: Pictures please!

Ask and ye shall receive

(note to other lurkers - this doesn't usually work with me)