GR17 - AWE vs 30 civs

[vmxa]

"clear units at our front, I think quick combat is enabled, disable it for the IT"

Not sure what this means, but I had combat animations on so no battles would be missed. It mattered little as few attacks took place in the IT.

 

[Northern Pike]

There are nine size-twelve cities in our core, and seven of them are throwing away their food production on full food boxes. That's seven free workers we need to skim off in the next few turns, and should have had a long time ago.

I normally prefer to research Industrialization after Steam Power, but I agree that we have to head directly for RP in this case.

 

[Greebley]

I looks like we should head straight for TOE. The AI already have Med and Electricity - as well as Ironclads and industrialization.

I wouldn't be suprised if the AI has Infantry in the not to distant future.

On the plus side noone has started Universal Sufferage. Some civs may have mobilized. [Cannot build TOE if they have]

 

[M60A3TTS]

There are nine size-twelve cities in our core, and seven of them are throwing away their food production on full food boxes. That's seven free workers we need to skim off in the next few turns, and should have had a long time ago.

Sorry, I can't agree with that. We have had piles of workers improving tiles that will never ever get used. These workers aren't free, they add to unit costs, and that reduces cash available for upgrades and science. To just have them sitting around burning cash when they can't rail or build useful improvements is a waste IMHO. It may be excess food, but it's one less turn before that next cavalry unit becomes available. And we need every unit available in this.

 

[ThERat]

now that we have steam and confirmed coal, we could skim off those workers....7 workers means 1 tile extra RR every turn for now.

I agree that Vikings might be mobilized as they don't build any wonder. The good thing is, at least they are somewhere behind Dutch and we will get them soon. if we hurry up, we can hurt them before they have infantry. We should be able to free more armies soon with RR and be able to raze and replace much more efficient than before.

 

[vmxa]

I looks like we should head straight for TOE. The AI already have Med and Electricity - as well as Ironclads and industrialization.

I wouldn't be suprised if the AI has Infantry in the not to distant future.

On the plus side noone has started Universal Sufferage. Some civs may have mobilized. [Cannot build TOE if they have]

First I would have to see who has what. If they have Med and Elec, but not Communism nor Nat, nor Ind, they are not going to pass those up to get Sci Meth.

If they had most of those as well, then we have no chance anyway to beat them to ToE.

Second, if we time out a solid prebuild and get get Sci Meth in time, we are golden. It is rare for an Emperor AI at war all time time to pull off ToE.

Finally, I am not sure we will do better by delaying RP. Rails will let us make up some time in research with the ability to have more food and support more scientist.

Rails will help get units out and those factories up with the extra shields.

Not to mention the use of infantry will let us get more aggressive. No need to cover those slow move cats and the ability to send out worker parties under infantry. They can be used to cover damages units, instead of armies.

To cut off certain tiles and force units around them, instead of armies.

As to the workers, it is a double edged sword. I see merit in skimming them, but I do not like to do it in towns that are my production towns. Especially when I cannot afford the extra support.

I am ambivalent about it as it does help get the rails up, so I would not oppose it. I just do not do it myself. Now if I have the free support, then by all means I would do it.

 

[Northern Pike]

Sorry, I can't agree with that. We have had piles of workers improving tiles that will never ever get used. These workers aren't free, they add to unit costs, and that reduces cash available for upgrades and science. To just have them sitting around burning cash when they can't rail or build useful improvements is a waste IMHO. It may be excess food, but it's one less turn before that next cavalry unit becomes available. And we need every unit available in this.

In cases when skimmed workers aren't needed to work, they can be merged into other cities. Our position would look considerably better with an extra twenty pop points distributed amongst the outer-core cities in the arc from Bengal to Quirigua. There's also the valuable trick of producing a settler quickly in a core town, and replacing the lost population immediately with merges.

We all know that population is power in Civ III. A non-skimming policy which wastes a large amount of population by the end of the game cannot be right.

 

[markh]

I got it. Looks like a tough ride.

 

[Greebley]

In cases when skimmed workers aren't needed to work, they can be merged into other cities. Our position would look considerably better with an extra twenty pop points distributed amongst the outer-core cities in the arc from Bengal to Quirigua. There's also the valuable trick of producing a settler quickly in a core town, and replacing the lost population immediately with merges.

We all know that population is power in Civ III. A non-skimming policy which wastes a large amount of population by the end of the game cannot be right.

I agree with NP on this one - now that we have rails, doubly so.

I also feel that building up worker numbers before you get rails is a good idea. It costs you a bit of cash for a short time, but once you are there you rail quickly and more than make up for it.

 

[vmxa]

I like making or aquiring workers prior to rails. Once I have that tech, I am not so inclined. This is more so in this game as we will not be adding them into any towns for a very very long time.

They will add to the cost, which is needed for the troops. Not sure if they wil be offset in any real way, as we will not gain gold from their labor.

We cannot count on adding in a large number of town in a real hurry. It requires the AI to raze towns and that may not continue.

In short once you have the tech, I prefer to keep those production centers making units. Now any max cap cities that are taking 12 or more turns to get out a cav can be used. Especially if they can get that town on a break point for production of cavs (10, 15, 20 net).

 

[Greebley]

Popping 1 pop off a max food town is worthwhile:
Taking a single turn to build a worker gains more units. You lose a turns production building the worker and one turn with only 11 pop. You gain more shields back though when that worker improves tiles enough that you will easy catch up and surpass the shields from one turn of production. The worker pays for itself in about 20 turns for a core city and by 50 has gotten 1 or 2 more units that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise - I suspect it will take 50 turns to have our core railed.

The gold per turn cost of the worker can also be offset if you improve corrupt cities. Spend the 6 turns irrigating 2 grasslands and you can gain another scientist for 3 beakers per turn for a net gain of +2 commerce per turn.

So in general the more workers the faster you will reach full railing which means core cities have +12 shields and corrupt towns have more food = more science. Only if the short term needs are more important than the medium turn are workers not worthwhile.

There probably is a limit where more workers don't help much - but I don't think we are there. If you could improve all tiles you are working in 30 turns then more workers might not be worthwhile. In our case I suspect it will take much longer than 30 turns.

There is also a max speed to building workers - you don't want to shrink core cities and corrupt cities take time to build them. This is why I like building up a good number when rails are getting close. Sure its extra unit costs for a few turn-sets, but by making scientists and improving the core you easily gain that gold back plus add shields as well.

 

[vmxa]

The problem with the corrupt towns issue is you cannot get workers to them from the core in a hurry, until we get some rails. This is why I like to do as you say, make those workers while researching Steam, so they are ready then.

 

[M60A3TTS]

So in general the more workers the faster you will reach full railing which means core cities have +12 shields and corrupt towns have more food = more science. Only if the short term needs are more important than the medium turn are workers not worthwhile.

This wasn't a question of workers for railing, it was NPs assertion that we should be skimming workers well before rail. I simply stand by my statement that until they have something meaningful to do, native workers are a cost that limit our ability to upgrade and research.

In any case, you can take note that we had 14 native workers in my last save and the number is exactly the same 2 players later, even with rail.

 

[ThERat]

During my set, I did not churn out any workers for 3 reasons

1. unit cost is already high at around 40-50gpt
2. we needed more units, badly that is
3. it was not clear whether we actually have coal and without coal, workers have nothing meaningful to do.

With #3 changed, we can try and skim off workers, I'd say settlers are far higher uo in the list of priorities and if we keep on razing towns, we can gain slaves much faster as well. Currently there is a small stack of 9 slaves escorted back and will reach our frontline next turn.

 

[vmxa]

That ecsort duty can soon be taken over by infantry, that will let us keep a lot more slaves than before.

 

[Greebley]

With us owning this much of the lands and access to that much -no man's land - the chance off getting coal was extremely close to 100 percent. We have 8 sources if we wanted to.

I think I have increased worker count on my turn after we get rails in every SG that wasn't nearly over. I doubt this game will be an exception.

 

[Sashie VII]

lurker's comment: Such a huge empire to manage, amidst AW. I'm awed by your (everyone) ability to focus, micromanage and still beat everyone up

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks for the compliment. It's always good to hear from lurkers.

I'm glad we've had a productive debate about worker skimming. I'll just repeat my point that if there's really nothing useful for skimmed workers to do, they can virtually always be profitably merged somewhere. If there's one game mechanic which even excellent players tend to underuse, I think merging is it.

 

[ThERat]

There is one thing that would prevent useful merging...with our current lux deficit, there are some towns that can not grow at all due to unhappiness. This is a serious issue really.

There are a few of them needing to employ clowns in order not to shrink. Merging will be more useful once we can employ more specialsts due to railed grass etc...all that plain land is really bad for us

 

[M60A3TTS]

Thanks for the compliment. It's always good to hear from lurkers.

I'm glad we've had a productive debate about worker skimming. I'll just repeat my point that if there's really nothing useful for skimmed workers to do, they can virtually always be profitably merged somewhere. If there's one game mechanic which even excellent players tend to underuse, I think merging is it.

Thanks for coming over to my side. Or did I just go to yours?

I agree fully that merging workers would be an appropriate use for skimmed workers. I merged close to 300 in the Celts AW game. None were built in my set because Greebley's thought prior to that was not to merge any. Naturally I was trying to be considerate of our great leader's opinion. But in the end merging some of the natives is precisely what I did to keep our budget in line as more cav support was required.

But ThERat is right too about the happiness issue. Maybe we can get an army or two on scouting to not just disconnect AI resources, but find another lux. We sure need it.