GR18-AWM Genocide Variant vs 30 Civs.
- Thread starter Greebley
- Start date
in 1570AD.
Mumpulus
King
I believe the domination/conquest combo by now is a classic finish for AW games.
But I don't think I've ever seen a histographic/conquest combo. We could be cutting it close here.
But I don't think I've ever seen a histographic/conquest combo. We could be cutting it close here.
Northern Pike
Deity
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Nice round. 
I suppose the overseas contacts from Printing Press will come quickly now.
For the most part we're building aqueducts before marketplaces, which is obviously correct when we only have two luxuries, but Kaesong is working on a market before a duct and should be switched.
Ulsan, which has reasonable research/commerce potential, is a clear case of a town we'd pump up with worker merges in an ordinary AW game. Since that's not likely to be an option with the genocide variant, I'd like to see it set for some natural population growth, even if that means less output in the short term.
I suppose the overseas contacts from Printing Press will come quickly now.For the most part we're building aqueducts before marketplaces, which is obviously correct when we only have two luxuries, but Kaesong is working on a market before a duct and should be switched.
Ulsan, which has reasonable research/commerce potential, is a clear case of a town we'd pump up with worker merges in an ordinary AW game. Since that's not likely to be an option with the genocide variant, I'd like to see it set for some natural population growth, even if that means less output in the short term.
ThERat
Deity
very nice round
Did you leave a knight army in the south. With contacts being sold and our south very lightly defended, the AI might just land units there. I would be careful as we have to raze any captured town.
I hope we can sustain research at a higher rate soon. What I am puzzled about is the fact that with so many enemies, we only have 2 luxes. Somewhat unfair
Did you leave a knight army in the south. With contacts being sold and our south very lightly defended, the AI might just land units there. I would be careful as we have to raze any captured town.
I hope we can sustain research at a higher rate soon. What I am puzzled about is the fact that with so many enemies, we only have 2 luxes. Somewhat unfair
What I am puzzled about is the fact that with so many enemies, we only have 2 luxes. Somewhat unfair
We were quite lucky in this department in the last games, so I guess it is payback time.
In the last games we were in destruction mode at this date long ago. This game is much more interesting and even more motivating at this stage in my opinion. I am quite curious when the first foreign cavs will appear. 
Ok, I got it. Great that we are now making good forward progress.
Roster:
Greebley - Up
NP - On Deck
markh
ThERat
Mumpulus - Just Played
Roster:
Greebley - Up
NP - On Deck
markh
ThERat
Mumpulus - Just Played
Mumpulus
King
If I remember correctly, Kaesong was building the marketplace when I got the game, and was working more sea tiles. I thought for some time about the choice between an aqueduct and a marketplace, and in the end decided for the marketplace first because I saw more added gpt potential earlier that way. Of course, that would imply working sea tiles and hiring a scientist at size 6 and working less shields, postponing the aqueduct and units after that. Because Kaesong will never produce many shields anyway (until railroads at least), I'd rather emphasize commerce and do the marketplace first.
Ulsan does have good production, so I would not cut that. We'll need an extra MP for growth to size 8 (I actually verified this by working the extra gems mountain instead of the low commerce grassland). So getting to more commerce will reduce production for 10 turns, and then tie up a unit after that. I agree that it's worthwhile to grow this city, but I would do it with merges. We're getting to the point where worker production is not that much of a problem. We need combat units more now.
I didn't leave a knight army in the southwest and I wouldn't do that, because we'll need those armies to raze cities. I started pulling out the last remaining sword army just last turn. Greebley can turn that one around if he wants to. I actually think we can afford loosing the occasional science farm more than reducing our conquest speed. Maybe we'll loose one town that way, but after that we'll know where the landings occur, and we should be able to pull together a sufficient singular unit force to handle that. There are a number of cats and lesser units present there now. If it turns out landings are too hard to handle, we can always bring an army later on. I wouldn't slow us down in any way until we know for sure. The chance of strong opposition there is small. We could select some central town in that area to build a barracks for healing and artillery upgrades when the time comes.
Regarding luxes: we're bound to stumble upon another one soon now, let's just hope it's not beyond those mountains.
Once again, my apologies to our friendly lurkers for the lack of pictures, but the truth is that I don't actually have the time to be playing this huge game. I had to cram in these turns where I could, so taking screenshots was low on my priority list this time.
My general feeling was that combat play is getting faster; we're not holding on by a thread anymore. But I am still checking MM for every town every turn, which is unbelievable around 1600AD, but it's absolutely necessary. If this had been a solo game, I would have stopped the moment I saw what horrible lands we have.
We have 2 defense fronts and 3 attack fronts right now. Tactically, it would be much easier/better to have just one attack front, but unfortunately, that front would be least useful for us to advance in (the south). So I would continue pushing north and north-east as well, while exploring east to hopefully find the end of the continent not too far beyond those mountains.
Ulsan does have good production, so I would not cut that. We'll need an extra MP for growth to size 8 (I actually verified this by working the extra gems mountain instead of the low commerce grassland). So getting to more commerce will reduce production for 10 turns, and then tie up a unit after that. I agree that it's worthwhile to grow this city, but I would do it with merges. We're getting to the point where worker production is not that much of a problem. We need combat units more now.
I didn't leave a knight army in the southwest and I wouldn't do that, because we'll need those armies to raze cities. I started pulling out the last remaining sword army just last turn. Greebley can turn that one around if he wants to. I actually think we can afford loosing the occasional science farm more than reducing our conquest speed. Maybe we'll loose one town that way, but after that we'll know where the landings occur, and we should be able to pull together a sufficient singular unit force to handle that. There are a number of cats and lesser units present there now. If it turns out landings are too hard to handle, we can always bring an army later on. I wouldn't slow us down in any way until we know for sure. The chance of strong opposition there is small. We could select some central town in that area to build a barracks for healing and artillery upgrades when the time comes.
Regarding luxes: we're bound to stumble upon another one soon now, let's just hope it's not beyond those mountains.
Once again, my apologies to our friendly lurkers for the lack of pictures, but the truth is that I don't actually have the time to be playing this huge game. I had to cram in these turns where I could, so taking screenshots was low on my priority list this time.
My general feeling was that combat play is getting faster; we're not holding on by a thread anymore. But I am still checking MM for every town every turn, which is unbelievable around 1600AD, but it's absolutely necessary. If this had been a solo game, I would have stopped the moment I saw what horrible lands we have.
We have 2 defense fronts and 3 attack fronts right now. Tactically, it would be much easier/better to have just one attack front, but unfortunately, that front would be least useful for us to advance in (the south). So I would continue pushing north and north-east as well, while exploring east to hopefully find the end of the continent not too far beyond those mountains.
Northern Pike
Deity
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Obviously you've given this serious thought, but have you allowed for the facts that 1) as soon as one of our towns reaches size seven, its centre tile yields four commerce instead of one, since we're a commercial civ, and 2) every city reaching size seven cuts 2 gpt off our army maintenance? Thus an aqueduct in Kaesong will yield a profit of 4 gpt (subtracting one for its maintenance) from the moment of its construction. If we completed a marketplace in Kaesong right now at the present MM (the realistic assumption, since we can't simply write off shield production in a core town) the profit would be 4 gpt at best, possibly 3 gpt, depending on rounding effects. This is without factoring in such refinements as that all the benefit from a marketplace would be subject to corruption, whereas some of that from an aqueduct (the reduction in our unit costs) would not be. So the aqueduct is a slightly superior choice even before we consider that the town will keep growing with a duct and stagnate with a market; and the build should be switched.
Our disagreement about Ulsan is more in the realm of general principle. I think our position would have to be a lot worse than it is for the short-term approach of letting a promising core town go without population growth to be correct. And regarding merges (of which I'm normally a great advocate), I think you're too optimistic about the adequacy of our worker supply. We should conquer a lot of new territory, representing a lot of extra labour, during the long haul (80 turns? 100?) to Steam Power.
Mumpulus
King
You've thoroughly convinced me on the Kaesong matter. I did forget about the extra commerce, which tips the balance for me: gain commerce and keep the shields.
For Ulsan, I agree that we're not drowning in workers, but my feeling is that we're even more dry on knights...
For Ulsan, I agree that we're not drowning in workers, but my feeling is that we're even more dry on knights...
Preturn: Looks pretty good. Made the switch NP mentioned. I also changed 2 very long times to knights to courthouses(19 & 22 turns). The towns were about 60% corrupt and seemed worthy getting their shields up before more military. Moved a pike into Pyongyang so it could grow.
Defend some Cats.
IBT: Magellan is being built. We can expect civs on other continents. Large number of Celtic Knights on the move.
1605 AD: Kill 2 units in Den Helder.
Build Sokch'o? What kind of name is that? It expands our NW border outward.
Build Iri in Ottoman territory. Attacked Sinop and Ankara
Some battles don't go so well. Cats do terrible. Knight retreats from a MDI and we nearly lose one on a 1 hp Pike. Armies will need healing. Sword can't kill 2 hp Pike. Fortunately, that is our only loss.
Made one mistake and we may lose a Pike guarding some Cats.
IBT: Even more Celtic Knights spotted and Sumerian Knights are heavy too. Did they just end a war? Not all are on our borders yet, but we are going to be hard pressed.
1610 AD: Sinop Razed and 6 workers killed. The town had Horses so there is some hope that Ottomans won't have them anymore.
Den Helder Razed Kill 2 Workers and one escapes (I hit shift-D instead of D to disband
It went off and will be captured by an enemy in the IBT. We will hunt it down eventually.
Kill a Settler up North
IBT: Lose a Knight to a Celtic Knight. Worker Captured.
1615 AD: Build Huich'on in ex-Ottoman territory.
Ankara Razed (Ottoman). Kutallu Razed(Sumerian).
Get the Knight situation under control.
Getting behind on clearing out lots of slow units near where Den Helder were.
IBT:
1620 AD: Err.. Why are we mining next to an iron source in the mountains? The iron is worth more shields. Wake the workers even though there is only 3 turns left to do the mountain. Not worth wasting the turns.
IBT: Incans want to know if we want to trade maps. Umm, no. You are scum and going to die utterly (declare war). I had better check for more contacts next turn.
1625 AD: We inform Egypt and Arabia of their fate. Egypt is second to us in power and top in score and culture.
Raze Konya(Ottoman)
Build Namp'o
IBT: I made a mistake and we lose 3 Workers. I didn't realize Knights could get to it.
1630 AD: Byzantine landing which includes a Cavalry. It is fortunately not in our territory, otherwise we could be in big trouble. Byzantine landed a settler with it in Ottoman terrritory. We meet Greece Invention has fallen to 2 turns.
Raze Eburacum (Celtic near inland Sea)
IBT: Lose a Pike.
1635 AD: Lose a Knight. Got a leader for a new Army.
Two more cities built in Ottoman territory. Build a city in the East Desert to get closer to the mountain range.
IBT: Several attacks on our Pikes by Knights we lose at least 1. We got Invention and Gunpowder is in 14.
1640 AD: Our Knight army cannot even handle some Spear in Barcelona. We go to 2 HP! Cover with another Army.
Piedra Negras a new Sumerian town is Autodestroyed.
Horrible RNG continued with our stupid Armies taking massive damage. Very annoying.
IBT: Well we don't lose an Army fortunately. There was one Knight Army with 5 hp that I thought might get attacked.
Landing near Tver
1645 AD:
Raze Bolu. We have Destroyed the Fragile Ottomans! That is two down and 28 to go.
Bunch of healing armies this turn and/or next.
1650 AD: Build two more cities.
Autodestroy Enscheda(Dutch), and attack Dutch Capitol.
Notes:
I was cutting roads near the The Hague as Knights kept showing up and killing pikes in Medievawon. Also one more road cut near Namp'o (probably should be renamed - the town in the NW that is not Nampo).
I wasn't playing very well this time - some "move out an MP and not adjust so we riot" type moves. My report may have missed something as well.
We are slowly pushing forward. Built a number of settlers again and marked more cities TEMP.
We are on Sumerian Horses, and hopefully will stop their knights.
The pictures show the current fronts and the big mountain range we want to avoid. Nothing really we couldn't handle. The number of knights are a pain and I expect we will see more Cav from the other Continent. I tried to put some Knights to the south because of that, but I bet we will need more.
The Save
Defend some Cats.
IBT: Magellan is being built. We can expect civs on other continents. Large number of Celtic Knights on the move.
1605 AD: Kill 2 units in Den Helder.
Build Sokch'o? What kind of name is that? It expands our NW border outward.
Build Iri in Ottoman territory. Attacked Sinop and Ankara
Some battles don't go so well. Cats do terrible. Knight retreats from a MDI and we nearly lose one on a 1 hp Pike. Armies will need healing. Sword can't kill 2 hp Pike. Fortunately, that is our only loss.
Made one mistake and we may lose a Pike guarding some Cats.
IBT: Even more Celtic Knights spotted and Sumerian Knights are heavy too. Did they just end a war? Not all are on our borders yet, but we are going to be hard pressed.
1610 AD: Sinop Razed and 6 workers killed. The town had Horses so there is some hope that Ottomans won't have them anymore.
Den Helder Razed Kill 2 Workers and one escapes (I hit shift-D instead of D to disband
It went off and will be captured by an enemy in the IBT. We will hunt it down eventually.Kill a Settler up North
IBT: Lose a Knight to a Celtic Knight. Worker Captured.
1615 AD: Build Huich'on in ex-Ottoman territory.
Ankara Razed (Ottoman). Kutallu Razed(Sumerian).
Get the Knight situation under control.
Getting behind on clearing out lots of slow units near where Den Helder were.
IBT:
1620 AD: Err.. Why are we mining next to an iron source in the mountains? The iron is worth more shields. Wake the workers even though there is only 3 turns left to do the mountain. Not worth wasting the turns.
IBT: Incans want to know if we want to trade maps. Umm, no. You are scum and going to die utterly (declare war). I had better check for more contacts next turn.
1625 AD: We inform Egypt and Arabia of their fate. Egypt is second to us in power and top in score and culture.
Raze Konya(Ottoman)
Build Namp'o
IBT: I made a mistake and we lose 3 Workers. I didn't realize Knights could get to it.
1630 AD: Byzantine landing which includes a Cavalry. It is fortunately not in our territory, otherwise we could be in big trouble. Byzantine landed a settler with it in Ottoman terrritory. We meet Greece Invention has fallen to 2 turns.
Raze Eburacum (Celtic near inland Sea)
IBT: Lose a Pike.
1635 AD: Lose a Knight. Got a leader for a new Army.
Two more cities built in Ottoman territory. Build a city in the East Desert to get closer to the mountain range.
IBT: Several attacks on our Pikes by Knights we lose at least 1. We got Invention and Gunpowder is in 14.
1640 AD: Our Knight army cannot even handle some Spear in Barcelona. We go to 2 HP! Cover with another Army.
Piedra Negras a new Sumerian town is Autodestroyed.
Horrible RNG continued with our stupid Armies taking massive damage. Very annoying.
IBT: Well we don't lose an Army fortunately. There was one Knight Army with 5 hp that I thought might get attacked.
Landing near Tver
1645 AD:
Raze Bolu. We have Destroyed the Fragile Ottomans! That is two down and 28 to go.
Bunch of healing armies this turn and/or next.
1650 AD: Build two more cities.
Autodestroy Enscheda(Dutch), and attack Dutch Capitol.
Notes:
I was cutting roads near the The Hague as Knights kept showing up and killing pikes in Medievawon. Also one more road cut near Namp'o (probably should be renamed - the town in the NW that is not Nampo).
I wasn't playing very well this time - some "move out an MP and not adjust so we riot" type moves. My report may have missed something as well.
We are slowly pushing forward. Built a number of settlers again and marked more cities TEMP.
We are on Sumerian Horses, and hopefully will stop their knights.
The pictures show the current fronts and the big mountain range we want to avoid. Nothing really we couldn't handle. The number of knights are a pain and I expect we will see more Cav from the other Continent. I tried to put some Knights to the south because of that, but I bet we will need more.
The Save
Northern Pike
Deity
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Good work disposing of the Ottomans.
Well, we took care of the Vikings before Berserkers and the Ottomans before Sipahis. That leaves Conquistadors as our next UU problem.
So we can expect seventy turns or so of cav landings before we have any kind of rail network. We'd better hope they all come in the same place.
I've got it.
Well, we took care of the Vikings before Berserkers and the Ottomans before Sipahis. That leaves Conquistadors as our next UU problem.
So we can expect seventy turns or so of cav landings before we have any kind of rail network. We'd better hope they all come in the same place.
I've got it.
Mumpulus
King
Still going strong 
My bad on that mountain mining thing: some short-circuit in my brain caused me to think that the 2 shields on the unimproved iron mountain versus the 1 shield on the unimproved regular mountain warranted mining the regular one first.
Let's indeed concentrate on avoiding conquistadors next. Although we've not seen any horse-based units from the Spanish, and they don't seem to have invention yet (no LBs).
Where were the landings? Near Tver, and ...?
Let's not forget we have a GA coming up in about 30 turns, possibly less. Should we do something special in preparation? I'm thinking go light on settler production in our core when we approach that time, maybe disband some of the temp towns if we can get our pop up in the neighboring cities. Finding another lux would also be really nice in that respect. Keep exploring with the Sumerian sword army, and maybe with with the sword army by The Hague as well...
Edit: One more issue we should start considering: are we going to mass-upgrade arty?
My bad on that mountain mining thing: some short-circuit in my brain caused me to think that the 2 shields on the unimproved iron mountain versus the 1 shield on the unimproved regular mountain warranted mining the regular one first.
Let's indeed concentrate on avoiding conquistadors next. Although we've not seen any horse-based units from the Spanish, and they don't seem to have invention yet (no LBs).
Where were the landings? Near Tver, and ...?
Let's not forget we have a GA coming up in about 30 turns, possibly less. Should we do something special in preparation? I'm thinking go light on settler production in our core when we approach that time, maybe disband some of the temp towns if we can get our pop up in the neighboring cities. Finding another lux would also be really nice in that respect. Keep exploring with the Sumerian sword army, and maybe with with the sword army by The Hague as well...
Edit: One more issue we should start considering: are we going to mass-upgrade arty?
Northern Pike
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BTW, the galley under construction in Medievawon on the little inland sea seems like an odd build. Is there some theory behind it, or are we just planning a booze cruise?
I haven't thought about this systematically, but my instinct is that we aren't going to be able to afford it, even in our GA. Every gp should go towards getting us to railroads at this point.
I haven't thought about this systematically, but my instinct is that we aren't going to be able to afford it, even in our GA. Every gp should go towards getting us to railroads at this point.
Booze cruise - definitely.
I meant to change this when I realized the sea was small, but then forgot. I am glad you noticed.
BTW, Spain has only Spear and Archers and makes a good target to go for. I attacked Barcelona, but we took more damage from the Spear than we did from Pikes and Muskets.
I meant to check to see if Newtons had been started, but forgot that as well. It might give us a hint on where the AI is in tech. I did not see Newton pop up during my turn.
I agree we won't be able to upgrade Cats. I would turn off Knight production and build our UU when we can since we are almost at Cav, Knights will just mean more cost of upgrade.
It will be more than 30 turns - 40-50 is my guess.
Keep an eye on Diplo - we are meeting civs via communication.
I meant to change this when I realized the sea was small, but then forgot. I am glad you noticed.
BTW, Spain has only Spear and Archers and makes a good target to go for. I attacked Barcelona, but we took more damage from the Spear than we did from Pikes and Muskets.
I meant to check to see if Newtons had been started, but forgot that as well. It might give us a hint on where the AI is in tech. I did not see Newton pop up during my turn.
I agree we won't be able to upgrade Cats. I would turn off Knight production and build our UU when we can since we are almost at Cav, Knights will just mean more cost of upgrade.
It will be more than 30 turns - 40-50 is my guess.
Keep an eye on Diplo - we are meeting civs via communication.
Ya, there can be some impressive mountain ranges on these huge maps.
ThERat
Deity
impressive progress these last few turns. I have hope that we will be able to dominate our continent with cav armies. Let's hope the AI is not too far ahead.
I would also advocate to go for the ToE slingshot without any delay. Of course this is a little further away, but we should not go for RP this time. With no information about AI techs, we cannot afford to guess.
As said in other threads before, I will be away from 21st Sep to 8th Oct. Thus, I guess I will miss one rotation at least.
I would also advocate to go for the ToE slingshot without any delay. Of course this is a little further away, but we should not go for RP this time. With no information about AI techs, we cannot afford to guess.
As said in other threads before, I will be away from 21st Sep to 8th Oct. Thus, I guess I will miss one rotation at least.
Northern Pike
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I've played six turns so far. We've razed Barcelona and Madrid and expanded well in the far northwest, while also pushing our lines forward in the eastern desert.
I'll try to post in about twenty-four hours, whether I'm able to play again or not.
I'll try to post in about twenty-four hours, whether I'm able to play again or not.
Northern Pike
Deity
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