Grant or Lee?

Grant or Lee?

  • Grant

    Votes: 39 45.9%
  • Lee

    Votes: 46 54.1%

  • Total voters
    85
Grant is a better name and no it is not my name.

But the spoils always go to the victor and since the north won, then so do accolades to generals of the army that made the victor possible.
 
You know, being "fair and balanced" does not rule out the possibility that one commander has very little skill.

True, and I would absolutely agree with you if we were comparing someone like Ambrose Burnside or John Bell Hood to Grant or Lee. But we are comparing arguably the two greatest generals of the civil war, two men who had a great deal of military skill between them.
 
One addendum concerning the Overland Campaign - If Butler strikes immediately towards Richmond in the first week of May then President Davis will have to evacuate. The city is defenseless as Lee is distracted in the Wilderness and Beauregard has not been able to put together a force yet. Lee has to turn south after the Wilderness then and chase Butler. Grant will get his decisive battle.

Grant's initial plans for the Overland Campaign were excellent.
 
True, and I would absolutely agree with you if we were comparing someone like Ambrose Burnside or John Bell Hood to Grant or Lee. But we are comparing arguably the two greatest generals of the civil war, two men who had a great deal of military skill between them.
This is begging the question, you're saying one cannot argue that Lee did not have a great deal of skill because, he was "One of two men who had a great deal of skill between them."
Even then, being "One of two men who had a great deal of skill between them." Does not a talented commander make. Between Yamashita and MacArthur, there was a great deal of military skill, for example.
 
This is begging the question, you're saying one cannot argue that Lee did not have a great deal of skill because, he was "One of two men who had a great deal of skill between them."
Even then, being "One of two men who had a great deal of skill between them." Does not a talented commander make. Between Yamashita and MacArthur, there was a great deal of military skill, for example.

Okay just to clarify things. Grant had a lot of skill as a military commander. Lee also had a lot of skill as a military commander.
 
If we compare these generals to professions, Lee would be an artist while Grant would be a craftsman.

But despite these different methods, both were very good commanders.

However, IMHO Lee was more brilliant than Grant and he also had more both respect and sympathy from his soldiers.

I always had more sentiment towards Lee.

But the spoils always go to the victor and since the north won, then so do accolades to generals of the army that made the victor possible.

The northern industry and the northern human reserves made the victory possible. These are two key factors.

The (purely numerical and material / technological) superiority of the northern army was only a natural consequence of the former two factors.
 
Re Overland Campaign casualties:

I think it's important to keep in mind that most historians are of the opinion that
Grant and Lee suffered around the same percentage of casualties (due to sketchy
Confederate records, it's not possible to be definitive on this one way or the other).
Also, the Army of the Potomac lost thousands of men during this time due to expiration
of enlistments, and did not really have as much of a numbers advantage as most
people believe.

Some interesting casualty data from the ACW (also statistics specifically for Lee's battles):

Appendix B (pp. 721 - 731):

http://books.google.pl/books?id=TPx...#v=onepage&q=Combat Efficiency Values&f=false
 
Okay just to clarify things. Grant had a lot of skill as a military commander. Lee also had a lot of skill as a military commander.
So, to clarify things, the reason why you disagree with LightSpectre's claim that Lee was not a good general, is that his argument that is discredited because it hinges on the fact that he has little skill, which we know is untrue, because you say he has a lot of skill, but you can't argue why.
 
I don't think Lee was unskilled; yet the fact of the matter is that most of his "successes" were really only "pyrrhic victories," and those are only account of his enemy making severe blunders. Grant, on the other hand, was one of the few generals in the whole war that was an exceedingly good strategist and won campaigns through extraordinary maneuvering and placement. With the exception of the mass surrender at the end of the war, there were only a handful of annihilation victories; all of them were by the hands of Grant. (Which is not to say he's in a complete league of his own with none comparable, nor that he didn't benefit from great luck at several turns; only that decisive victories were possible in the American Civil War, of which Lee scored none, despite being hailed as the alleged greatest in the whole war.)

Lee, I think, is something like the American equivalent of Paul von Hindenburg. Lee had very talented subordinates like Jackson and Longstreet, and since Lee was able to co-ordinate them well, he can be called a good general. But the ridiculous hagiography that the South gave him after the war is obviously undeserved on several counts. Your average postbellum Democrat liked him just because he was the highest ranked general in the Confederacy, and the minutiae of his actual career is irrelevant to them in this regard. But Confederate apologists used Lee as evidence that their cause was righteous, and the Civil War was only lost because the stupider Northern generals had more men to shove into the meat grinder. That's patently false. It's pretty clear to anybody who reads a detailed and objective account of Grant's and Lee's campaigns, that it was really Grant who displayed strategic genius, whereas Lee often applied the "standard" approach, albeit competently.
 
I don't remember using one before, but they are very comparable conflicts.
 
I seem to remember that you put Nathan Bedford Forrest as the Ludendorf to Lee's Hindenburg once.

That comparison is sensible if we're talking about after the war, but during the war, Ludendorff was a staff commander, whereas Forrest was something of a terrorist. Not exactly comparable, so I don't think I would've said that.
 
I see the Lost Cause is strong with the voters in this Pole.
 
That comparison is sensible if we're talking about after the war, but during the war, Ludendorff was a staff commander, whereas Forrest was something of a terrorist. Not exactly comparable, so I don't think I would've said that.
Your specific comparison was after. Some lost causer sounding an awful lot like a Dochlosslegende...uh...er.
 
Your specific comparison was after. Some lost causer sounding an awful lot like a Dochlosslegende...uh...er.

Oh, I remember what you're talking about now. The Lost Causer in question was describing the Confederacy in a way that was eerily similar to how post-war right-wing extremists described the German Empire. That was more of a joke than anything.
 
Wow! A complete 50-50 on this topic. I have to go with Lee. He had more victories with less recourses. Of course he eventually lost, but I think this wan't his fault but actually the Confederacy's.
 
Wow! A complete 50-50 on this topic. I have to go with Lee. He had more victories with less recourses. Of course he eventually lost, but I think this wan't his fault but actually the Confederacy's.
Do people even read the competent - and in several cases, university-accredited - historians on the boards anymore, or are we just here for ballast?

The answer is so obviously Grant that I weep for the future of humanity upon seeing the evenness of this poll.
 
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