Great general mechanism from warlords?

[Ahwaric]

Ever since the conversion of FfH from vanilla to BtS I wondered why are we still stuck with the old "Great Grenadier" guy. But maybe I am one of the few that would prefer great general mechanism introduced by the warlords expansion?
I have created this poll to get the answer to this question. And if I am not the only one, maybe it will serve as a small petition to the FfH team to introduce generals sooner or later (preferably sooner ) to our favourite mod?
So, express your opinion

 

[Mortenart]

I never played Warlords, can you explain the difference between the Great General and Great Commander please?

 

[Ahwaric]

Great General is the great person that is generated when total combat experience form the war with another civilization (but not barbarians) reaches certain level i.e. 45 points. It can then build military academy (which can be replaced by command post in FfH), join a city as a military instructor (+2 exp to all units produced in the city) or be joined to a unit. When joined, he can not be removed but provides one time xp bonus to all units at the sime tile (20 points total) and allows access to some special promotions (morale: +1 movement, leadership: +100% exp from combat, combat VI: +25% strength, tactics: +30% withdrawal chance and medic III heals same tile and adjcent ones +15% per turn). It was first introduced in warlords expansion and works the same way in BtS.

Great Commander is a great person introduced to FfH when it required only Civ IV without any expansion and continues to work more or less the same way ever since. It is generated the same way all other great people are generated - from great people points in a city or by reasearching certain techs as a first civ. It can build command post, start golden age, can recruit and be joined to a unit. When joined he provides +1 strength to a unit and can be removed and used for something else any time.

The main problem is not the difference with the functions (it can be adjusted to FfH needs) but the way they are generated. I think that great generals generated in combat have much more flavour than great commanders that you can get without ever fighting a war. I got numerous ones this way playing Elohim - by researching military strategy as a first civ or simply by great people points from heroic/national epic. And then it could start a golden age I think that even in so called reality all great generals were forged by war, not from long lessons in the academy... Of course, military academy training never hurts

On the other hand, the xp from wars with other civs is still calculated (you can check it at the military advisor), but no great general is generated when you accumulate enough xp. In fact, nothing is generated at all. It just goes to waste...

The lack of great generals is in my opinion the worst part of FfH. I love this mod and I think it would be even greater if this will get added. And that is why I started this poll - to check if there are others like me and if something can be done

 

[Darkheart]

I'd second Ahwaric on this, though I like the current function of the great commander as its the the only way (if your not playing raider) to get that extra 1xp between 100 and 101.... unless of course you go to war.

It does make more sense though to generate great generals/commanders from combat rather than from buildings and would help the warmongers civs like clan rather than the pacifist/builder types. Particularly as the mechanism is apparently already there.

 

[it-ogo]

On the one hand I don't like that great commander interfere with other great people generation. (But it is much bigger problem for FFH to separate battle XP and other kinds of XP. We'll need a counter of victories.) On the other hand I like effects of great gommander more.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

If they do go with the great general mechanic, I hope they allow great general points from fighting barbarians. The Barbs are much more fa threat in FfH (especially n my modmod, where they have many of the best traits until you kill their heroes) and you deserve more of a reward for defeating them.

I would prefer combining the 2 units: allowing it to be generated the Warlords way but still giving some GPP from wonders/buildings (but not as many), still allowing the great commander promotion (and its +1 str +1 xp per battle) but also being a prereq for other promotions, and most importantly allowing great commanders to be settled in cities as xp granting specialists. Since it could be abused if it allows more promotions and can be moved from unit to unit, it would make sense for it to be stuck to just one unit. How about combine the great commander and recruiter promotions, so that units with great commanders could recruit units, perhaps of number and strength based on the units strength and experience? Allowing free upgrades is good, and I think it would also be nice for it to reduce the units xp requirements for each level (perhaps like the charismatic trait, but able to stack with it) would be nice. I never liked the +20 xp distributed randomly to all units on the tile. A free promotion for all of them would be nice though. Something to do with the Morale mechanic would be good too.

 

[marioflag]

Great General implementation is IMO a lot better, clearly Great Generals should be modified in FfH2 considering how much more important is XP in the mod.

 

[Bringa]

I really do prefer the generate-enough-combat-xp-to-get-a-free-general mechanic, but I'm a little worried: exactly how does it work? I didn't play much Warlords (because I was already hooked on FFH when it came out). Does it generate GPP in a random city? In the capital? Or does it keep track of the generated point otherwise? Because if it creates GPP in a city, this could mess with a lot of things, not least of all the Grigori's adventurer mechanic.

 

[korn469]

I really do prefer the generate-enough-combat-xp-to-get-a-free-general mechanic, but I'm a little worried: exactly how does it work? I didn't play much Warlords (because I was already hooked on FFH when it came out). Does it generate GPP in a random city? In the capital? Or does it keep track of the generated point otherwise? Because if it creates GPP in a city, this could mess with a lot of things, not least of all the Grigori's adventurer mechanic.

Bringa

It keeps track of the points in the military adviser screen (the shield icon), and you can already see this bar in v.30 but it doesn't do anything. It doesn't generate GPPs at all. It just tracks victories against other civ, and not Barbs. After you get 30 victories or something you get get your first Great General, then it takes 45 or so victories to get your second Great General, and so on.

I also highly advocate replacing Great Commanders in ffh with Great Commanders. I think it creates more variety, gives the game more strategic depth, Great Generals also seem to have solid AI code in Warlords/BtS and I'm so sure Great Commanders are used as effectively by the AI. Plus I think Great Generals are just more fun.

 

[Mortenart]

Thanks for clearing that up Ahwaric. Having read your post, I agree that Great Generals seem far more attuned to what would happen in reality, although Great Commanders could also have their place purely as leaders who have risen to the top through their tactical astuteness and military abilities on the training grounds. Would definitely like to see GC`s back in the game though.

 

[Ekolite]

I think that the fact that they aren't using the great general bar atm is probably because they have something new and flavourful in mind for it. Its propably something waiting for ''ice'', to be implemented. Whether it will be great generals, or something else, who knows.

 

[Mesix]

I like the way Great Generals are generated in BTS. I always consider a Great Commander to be a waste of GPP when they pop in FfH. If the mod team has a plan for the Great General mechanic, that's great, I'll patiently wait to see how it turns out. If the Great Commander is just a stale leftover from earlier versions, please update to the BTS interface for Great Generals!!!

 

[kenken244]

I would also like them to be combined. I like many of the features of the current commanders (except that they sometimes recruit arcane units or priests with no promotions) and the great generals. I think that they still should be able to be generated from cities, but maybe have a modifier added that changes depending on how much you have been at war and slowly dissapears, so you can still generate them as GPs right after a war. That way, I can have a choice to sacrifice regular GPs for generals If I need them, And can still get them if I am in a temporary peace and need to rebuild my army, while not having to go to war to get generals to improve my units.

 

[Quetz]

I vastly prefer the Great General. The extra promotions he opens up (Combat 6, Medic 3, some others) are far cooler to me than the +1 str the current commander gives, not to mention the xp increase and so on. It's just a much more interesting mechanic overall.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, seeing as few units can get Medic 2, access to Medic 3 is pointless. And the +1 Strength is more than Combat 6 will give to anything short of STR 10+ Units, who don't come so early in the game you need much boosting on them. And an attached commander gives +1 XP per battle, which in FfH quickly means more than 20 instantly from a General.

But yes, getting them through combat XP means getting more of them in a game (or getting them at all) which can be a good thing.

I'd love it if you could get other things though, since it isn't entirely appropriate for everyone to get a Great General no matter what. Maybe create UU versions of the GG for each civ?

Sidar: GG replacement can settle as a multi-specialist (equal yields to 1 of each Great Specialist type)

Elohim: GG replacement can be sacraficed to force a Peace Treaty with all who are currently at war with you.

Svartalfar: GG can be sacraficed to cast Recruit near ENEMY cities (taking their population, giving you units).

Amurite: GG can grant Hero promotion to any Arcane unit (thus allowing eventual Twincast ability).


Could list many more, but have to go have Valentine's Dinner with my wife

 

[Darkheart]

I dont think the Sidar need any more pumping as I think they're turning out to be quite a monster as it is. But I do like the Elohim one that really does fit the character.

A brief but funny thought did occur on that one, it could be based on the number of combats that you DONT have...... but that might be really difficult to code

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

I prefer the great commander but I would like it if GCs were created with xp and GPPs

 

[Tlalynet]

Great commanders creted by battle. Xein's idea is good, but 1 of every GP type for Sidar sounds like a lot, especially when the threashold for the first GG is 30 exp. I dont think other generated XP (Hero ect) would be a problem, I'm fairly certin only EXP gained from combat with enemy civs counts in the first place. Would it cause problems for vanila players who get the FFH mod?

 

[xienwolf]

Well it was an off-the-cuff idea while in a rush And I haven't played the Sidar too much, or I would have selected just 2 types for them. First impulse was to allow the normal GG settle to grant 2XP, but THAT becomes overpowered quick for the Sidar.

 

[Tlalynet]

Yeah, either way would be fair. Its a good idea but an early war would really imbalance the game in favor the sidar.

Wow, Sidar + Altar of Lunnorator VI + GG's... Druids that shade in 5 turns or less. You're right, that is even more overpowered.