chancellor_dan
Prince
All the MP's of the Scottish Parliament who voted to dissolve themselves in 1707.
Greatest traitor in your nations (or anyone elses) history?
- Thread starter Verbose
- Start date
blackheart
unenlightened
Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam. Good job communists! 
. Actually, all communist leaders to have ever been in power (except perhaps the reforming Gorbachev). They've all betrayed the protelariat.
. Actually, all communist leaders to have ever been in power (except perhaps the reforming Gorbachev). They've all betrayed the protelariat.
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
Good question. Probably the people around Hindenburg and Hindenburg himself who gave away the Republic to the Fascists.
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
Also a good point. In that regard Stalin is probably the worst traitor ever.blackheart said:Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam. Good job communists!
Sims2789
Fool me once...
Hitro said:
Yeah. He became the bourgeosie, nobles, and czar whereas everyone else became the serfs.
Trotskij
Chieftain
Yeah, Stalin.
I woulden't call him a communist after what he have done. He became very capitalistic in many ways. And a comrade woulden't kill other comrades. He killed one of the greatest socialists in the time, Trotskij. If he would become leader after Stalin im sure Sovjet would be a different country.
I woulden't call him a communist after what he have done. He became very capitalistic in many ways. And a comrade woulden't kill other comrades. He killed one of the greatest socialists in the time, Trotskij. If he would become leader after Stalin im sure Sovjet would be a different country.
yeah very different. It'd be rueld by the Nazis.
Not being a Stalin supporter I would ,however, argue that the forced industrialisation, which turned the USSR into the worlds second largest economic power, combined with the moving of industry from western Russia to behind the Ural mountains, prevented the USSR falling to the Nazis. Adminttadley uncle Joes killing enough large numbers of officers in the 1930s didnt help the performance of the Red Army. But a more gradual industrialisation process which other in the Soviet hiearchy in the 1920's were suggesting, such as Buchanin, would have meant that the USSR would be crushed by the Nazi onslaught. Though this being conjecture rather than fact is obviously up for debate.
I would say that all those foriegn nationals, and there was a lot, who joined the SS were particually bad traitors. Belgiums, Dutch, French, Denmarks, Norwiegnes, Hungarians, Croats, Ukranians, Latvians, Estonians, Romanians, Albanians, Bosnians, Spanish, Russians, Italians and Britons.
Not being a Stalin supporter I would ,however, argue that the forced industrialisation, which turned the USSR into the worlds second largest economic power, combined with the moving of industry from western Russia to behind the Ural mountains, prevented the USSR falling to the Nazis. Adminttadley uncle Joes killing enough large numbers of officers in the 1930s didnt help the performance of the Red Army. But a more gradual industrialisation process which other in the Soviet hiearchy in the 1920's were suggesting, such as Buchanin, would have meant that the USSR would be crushed by the Nazi onslaught. Though this being conjecture rather than fact is obviously up for debate.
I would say that all those foriegn nationals, and there was a lot, who joined the SS were particually bad traitors. Belgiums, Dutch, French, Denmarks, Norwiegnes, Hungarians, Croats, Ukranians, Latvians, Estonians, Romanians, Albanians, Bosnians, Spanish, Russians, Italians and Britons.
Trotskij
Chieftain
Yes. Thats true indeed. Maybe USSR would have lost....we will never know. And yes, Stalin really boosted up the economic.
But still, all the people Stalin killed...and he really destroyed what people think of communism.
Trotskij was a smart man, I think he could been able to stop the nazis. And I think that the economic stuff would be no problem for him.
But still, all the people Stalin killed...and he really destroyed what people think of communism.
Trotskij was a smart man, I think he could been able to stop the nazis. And I think that the economic stuff would be no problem for him.
Yes its possible, and I wouldnt argue for definite against this because obviously there is no way of knowing. I would like to think that Trotsky could have developed the economey and state without the same body count because he did not have the same paranoia that Stalin did. But Stalin's paranoia kept the Bolsheviks in power.
Also despite being a former Trotskyist - www.swp.org.uk - I dont think he was any less athoritarian than Stalin, just less blood thirsty.
Also despite being a former Trotskyist - www.swp.org.uk - I dont think he was any less athoritarian than Stalin, just less blood thirsty.
Trotskij
Chieftain
I agree...with about 91% 
The things I dont agree with.....is hard to explain in english..(my english is very bad)
The things I dont agree with.....is hard to explain in english..(my english is very bad)
blackheart
unenlightened
Trotsky wasn't an insane dictator who had a fear of flying and had an intense paranoia and wanted to kill everyone who he feared . He may have been as ruthless as Stalin, but he wasn't (as) demented.
. He may have been as ruthless as Stalin, but he wasn't (as) demented.
DexterJ said:
I think there's a need of distinction between Belgians and Ukrainians, for example. Ukrainian forces during ww2 commited dreadful crimes, including ethnical clearsing of Poles in western Ukraine, but I would not call them "traitors". They thought they're fighting for their independance, and there was no chance of achieving it by supporting Poland, USSR, or Allies. They didn't have much choice.
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
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Indeed, those who committed the crimes could more accurately be called "scum"
~Corsair#01~
Deity
Wasn't Hanno the Great a Carthaginian traitor?
Think battle of the Boyne for example, William of Orange against James II who was a Stuart, so was Bonnie Prince Charlie during the 1745 Jacobite rebellion.
Yeah, I must have heard of the Stuarts from James II then.
Hess was more of a nut that a traitor. He thought he was going to be able to negotiate a peace with the British to forward Hitlers eventual plans for war with the Russians. He also thought that Hitler really liked the English as a fellow germanic people and that Hitler felt the war between them was a foolish mistake when the real common enemy was Russian Bolshevism.
I thought Hitler offered to make an alliance with the English once?
Anyway, isn't it funny how Hess hanged himself... in 1987? It seems a bit odd, if he was going to kill himself you'd think he'd have done it around the same time as Goering. Meh, guess he was old and didn't want to live any more...
Yeah, I must have heard of the Stuarts from James II then.
Hess was more of a nut that a traitor. He thought he was going to be able to negotiate a peace with the British to forward Hitlers eventual plans for war with the Russians. He also thought that Hitler really liked the English as a fellow germanic people and that Hitler felt the war between them was a foolish mistake when the real common enemy was Russian Bolshevism.
I thought Hitler offered to make an alliance with the English once?
Anyway, isn't it funny how Hess hanged himself... in 1987? It seems a bit odd, if he was going to kill himself you'd think he'd have done it around the same time as Goering. Meh, guess he was old and didn't want to live any more...
~Corsair#01~
Deity
Seanirl said:
Well, this way it works out the same, but he gets to live an extra 40 years.
When I first saw this topic, I began thinking about that dude my teacher mentioned serveral years ago who gave up Finland to an inferiour Russian army without even a fight. This is how I remember it from school, perhaps I'm wrong, but all three of us are probably talking about the same man, right?mrtn said:Vice-admiral Carl Olof Cronstedt (1756-1820), the man who single handedly lost Finland to the Russians, you mean?Verbose said:
Yes, I've had writing about him in mind when I started this thread. I'll be back with this story of betrayal from the Napoleonic wars.
Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
Segestes, father in law of the Germanic chieftain Arminius. Arminius was the son of the Cheruscian Prince Sigimur, who was elceted by the cheruscs to lead them. Segestes was disappointed as he thought to be the real ruler. When the Romans came to Germany he was betraying his people.
Arminius became a Roman soldier, but as patriot he only wanted to learn how to beat them. He wanted to know his enemy. His cances grew rapidly when he returned to help Varus. Varus was the Roman commander after Tiberius was busy in Illyria. Arminius used the incompetent Varus to build up a resistance force. Therefore he had to use all Germanic tribes. Segestes became knowledge of the whole situation and warned Varus. But because Arminius just married the daughter of Segestes, Thusnelda, Varus thought this was only family trouble. Indeed he gave Arminius the commandship of the German scout forces.
Anno Domini 9 Varus was lead into a trap and his legions were annhiliated. Varus commited suicide. Later Segestes sold his own pregnant daughter to the Romans. She, her brother and her son were shown on the Roman triumph in 17 AD. What then happened to them is not known.
Adler
Arminius became a Roman soldier, but as patriot he only wanted to learn how to beat them. He wanted to know his enemy. His cances grew rapidly when he returned to help Varus. Varus was the Roman commander after Tiberius was busy in Illyria. Arminius used the incompetent Varus to build up a resistance force. Therefore he had to use all Germanic tribes. Segestes became knowledge of the whole situation and warned Varus. But because Arminius just married the daughter of Segestes, Thusnelda, Varus thought this was only family trouble. Indeed he gave Arminius the commandship of the German scout forces.
Anno Domini 9 Varus was lead into a trap and his legions were annhiliated. Varus commited suicide. Later Segestes sold his own pregnant daughter to the Romans. She, her brother and her son were shown on the Roman triumph in 17 AD. What then happened to them is not known.
Adler
Verbose
Deity
Probably.Pigalle said:When I first saw this topic, I began thinking about that dude my teacher mentioned serveral years ago who gave up Finland to an inferiour Russian army without even a fight. This is how I remember it from school, perhaps I'm wrong, but all three of us are probably talking about the same man, right?
Loyalties between Sweden, Finland and Russia became pretty torn after 1809.
At the time, in Sweden, Gustaf Mauritz Armfelt was considered a worse traitor than Cronstedt. He was the former favourite of Gustaf III, pledged allegience to the Emperor Alexander I and ran Finland on his behalf, while condemned to death for treason in Sweden.
OTH Armfelt made damn sure only Finns were appointed to office in Finland, effectively giving the country a national Finnish government.
It was Armfelt who came up with the phrase: "We are no longer Swedish. We have no wish to be Russian. So let us for God's sake be Finnish!" Of course he said that in Swedish.
After the German invation 9 April 1945 the leader of a small facist party named Nasjonal Samling and led by Vidkun Quisling took power with the support of the germans. Quisling became the most hated man in Norway at that time the Norwegians hatred for him was even more intense than the hatred for Adolf Hitler. After the war he was shot and now lies buried somwhere in Akershus Fortress.
After the war he was shot and now lies buried somwhere in Akershus Fortress.Similar threads
