Greatest traitor in your nations (or anyone else’s) history?

[Stapel]

I thought Hitler offered to make an alliance with the English once?

I'm not sure he actualy made an offer, but he never intended to go to war with Britain.
I've read many Nuernberg interrogation reports, and I was quite surprsied to see that practically all nazi prisoners declared Hitler was not expecting Britain and France to intervene after the attack on Poland.

Anyway, isn't it funny how Hess hanged himself... in 1987? It seems a bit odd, if he was going to kill himself you'd think he'd have done it around the same time as Goering. Meh, guess he was old and didn't want to live any more...

Hess was nuts.
He suffered from 'selective amnysia'. And not just a bit.

 

[Terje]

DexterJ:

I would say that all those foriegn nationals, and there was a lot, who joined the SS were particually bad traitors. Belgiums, Dutch, French, Denmarks, Norwiegnes, Hungarians, Croats, Ukranians, Latvians, Estonians, Romanians, Albanians, Bosnians, Spanish, Russians, Italians and Britons.

Well, I don't know about the people of other nationalities, but most of the Norwegian SS men were people who had fought with the Finns during the Winter War, and who had, either during the war or before, aquired a burning hate for the Russians/Communists.

yeah very different. It'd be rueld by the Nazis.

Well, Trotsky was the organizer behind the Red Army during the Revolution, wasn't he?
I know they were stopped by a Polish army led by French officers just outside of Warzawa in 1920, on their way to liberate the West from the yoke of capitalism, but he was a more inspiring leader than Stalin. It was Trotsky who thought of giving the soldiers of the Red Army uniforms, since he knew that that would make them feel prouder and more like an actual army, i.e. increase morale.

nonconformist:

Gandhi was also a Nazi sympathiser, and anti-semite.

In 1946 he said "The Jews offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs".

I may be wrong, but isn't this (at last the latter part about Gandhi being an anti-semite) based on a misunderstanding, or rather, Gandhi's lack of understanding the Nazis?
The way I recall this, Gandhi thought that they should have killed themselves rather than being slaughtered by the Nazis, because he believed that the Nazis were like the British; that they would be in some way shocked by this, and as a result stop their genocide.

Oivind:

After the German invation 9 April 1945 the leader of a small facist party named Nasjonal Samling and led by Vidkun Quisling took power with the support of the germans. Quisling became the most hated man in Norway at that time the Norwegians hatred for him was even more intense than the hatred for Adolf Hitler. After the war he was shot and now lies buried somwhere in Akershus Fortress.

Fun fact about Quisling:
Hitler never trusted the guy, and thought that he was an incompetent nutcase, which says something, considering who said this.

I would rank Knut Hamsun just a little lower than Quisling. Sure, Hamsun didn't kill anyone or anything, but with Quisling, we knew what we had (after all, he sent in the army during a major strike (was it in '28?), which resulted in the "Menstad Battle" during his period as a minister in the government. Also, Quisling was the aide of Fritjof Nansen during the starvations in Russia after the Revolution. In fact, there's some neat pictures with Quisling posing next to Stalin. These pictures weren't exactly popular in the USSR during and after the war, so there's some versions of them where Quisling has been manipulated out of the picture. In any case, quite a match.
Well, back to Hamsun. His betrayal may have been petty, but it was none the less a betrayal. During the invasion of Norway in April 1940, Hamsun agreed to make an appearance on live radio, where he asked the Norwegian resistance movement to lay down their arms.
Also, he supported the Nazis throughout the entire occupation.

But worse than both these two, was the infamous Rinnan band. They were led by the Norwegian Nazi Henry Rinnan, who for a time did some undercover infiltration work in the resistance. When he emerged from his infiltration, he and his band arrested a whole bunch of resistance members, and tortured them to death. I'm not sure how long they managed to stay away from the vengeful wrath of the resistance, but I think they were killed before the ned of the war. If not, they were most likely executed.

 

[privatehudson]

Well, I don't know about the people of other nationalities, but most of the Norwegian SS men were people who had fought with the Finns during the Winter War, and who had, either during the war or before, aquired a burning hate for the Russians/Communists.

That would have been one of the reasons many joined the Waffen SS yes, especially in Eastern europe were the Communists were highly unpopular, even in certain areas of the USSR this was the case. There would of course always be a certain degree of hardcore Nazis within most of these units though who sympahthised with the aims and theories of Hitler.

 

[Richard Cribb]

DexterJ:

Well, I don't know about the people of other nationalities, but most of the Norwegian SS men were people who had fought with the Finns during the Winter War, and who had, either during the war or before, aquired a burning hate for the Russians/Communists.

Well, Trotsky was the organizer behind the Red Army during the Revolution, wasn't he?
I know they were stopped by a Polish army led by French officers just outside of Warzawa in 1920, on their way to liberate the West from the yoke of capitalism, but he was a more inspiring leader than Stalin. It was Trotsky who thought of giving the soldiers of the Red Army uniforms, since he knew that that would make them feel prouder and more like an actual army, i.e. increase morale.

nonconformist:


I may be wrong, but isn't this (at last the latter part about Gandhi being an anti-semite) based on a misunderstanding, or rather, Gandhi's lack of understanding the Nazis?
The way I recall this, Gandhi thought that they should have killed themselves rather than being slaughtered by the Nazis, because he believed that the Nazis were like the British; that they would be in some way shocked by this, and as a result stop their genocide.

Oivind:

Fun fact about Quisling:
Hitler never trusted the guy, and thought that he was an incompetent nutcase, which says something, considering who said this.

I would rank Knut Hamsun just a little lower than Quisling. Sure, Hamsun didn't kill anyone or anything, but with Quisling, we knew what we had (after all, he sent in the army during a major strike (was it in '28?), which resulted in the "Menstad Battle" during his period as a minister in the government. Also, Quisling was the aide of Fritjof Nansen during the starvations in Russia after the Revolution. In fact, there's some neat pictures with Quisling posing next to Stalin. These pictures weren't exactly popular in the USSR during and after the war, so there's some versions of them where Quisling has been manipulated out of the picture. In any case, quite a match.
Well, back to Hamsun. His betrayal may have been petty, but it was none the less a betrayal. During the invasion of Norway in April 1940, Hamsun agreed to make an appearance on live radio, where he asked the Norwegian resistance movement to lay down their arms.
Also, he supported the Nazis throughout the entire occupation.

But worse than both these two, was the infamous Rinnan band. They were led by the Norwegian Nazi Henry Rinnan, who for a time did some undercover infiltration work in the resistance. When he emerged from his infiltration, he and his band arrested a whole bunch of resistance members, and tortured them to death. I'm not sure how long they managed to stay away from the vengeful wrath of the resistance, but I think they were killed before the ned of the war. If not, they were most likely executed.

Excellent post!
But to me Hamsun is the megacreep. He was reactionary all his life and it culminated with his war activities.
I consider his betrayal to be not at all a petty one, given the fact that he was such a famous culture personality, famous in huge parts of the world, admired by people like Thomas Mann, Maksim Gorkij, Henry Miller and several others. I am principally against death penalty, but I wouldn't mind having had him shot like a mad dog.
Rinnan on the other hand was just a petty sadist, of course he personally commited more disgusting acts than Hamsun, but giving a great name in approval of a wicked ideology is an act which has far bigger consequences since it is in a way a betrayal of humanity.

 

[Terje]

Another thing that's kinda disgusting about Hamsun is the way he didn't complain about being let off easy during his trial because of claims that he was insane (I believe this was the idea of the prosecuting attorneys; we couldn't have one of the most brilliant Norwegian writers in the first half of the 20th centure being a sane Nazi, could we?). This plea for insanity was still held up, despite the fact that he wrote his, some claim, best book after the war. Since I haven't read the book, I wouldn't be able to comment on that (I began reading the book he was rewarded the Nobel Literature Prize for, but it was so full of fascist thoughts, that I couldn't finish it).

 

[privatehudson]

That's one thing that almost impressed me about Speer. For all his faults, at least he didn't try to avoid responsibility at Nuremberg like so many high ranking Germans who essentially pleaded that they were just following orders.

 

[Richard Cribb]

Another thing that's kinda disgusting about Hamsun is the way he didn't complain about being let off easy during his trial because of claims that he was insane

Yes, the great aristocrat and master wasn't such a hero after all...

(I believe this was the idea of the prosecuting attorneys; we couldn't have one of the most brilliant Norwegian writers in the first half of the 20th centure being a sane Nazi, could we?).

Exactly.

(This plea for insanity was still held up, despite the fact that he wrote his, some claim, best book after the war. Since I haven't read the book, I wouldn't be able to comment on that (I began reading the book he was rewarded the Nobel Literature Prize for, but it was so full of fascist thoughts, that I couldn't finish it).

I have read absolute everything of Hamsun, and while the one you are referring to "Paa gjengrodde stier"(On overgrown paths) is darned good for a man of his age and certainly written by somebody sane(in one sense at least), I can't really say that it is his best.
The novel "Markens grøde" (Growth of the soil) which gave him the Nobel Prize is quite dull besides it ideological content.. Later he gets even worse, he attacks feminism, socialism, labour unions, he is even so reactionary that he hates capitalism.
In my opinion the best works of Hamsun is Hunger and Mysteries.
By the way, the book published last year by Jørgen Haugan: "Solgudens fall" (The fall of the sungod) is one I would really recommend if you want to learn who Hamsun really was. Ingar Sletten Kolloen's two volume biography is also quite good, as is Ståle Dingstad's work. And Aasmund Brynhildsen, of course!

 

[Verbose]

Well, Trotsky was the organizer behind the Red Army during the Revolution, wasn't he?
I know they were stopped by a Polish army led by French officers just outside of Warzawa in 1920, on their way to liberate the West from the yoke of capitalism,

Just nitpicking, but isn't that one of the myths of the post-WWI period? It's one of these cases when no one really knows what the heck the a handfull of French generals really did, but somehow it must have been important.

The Red Army's offensive stopped outside Warsaw and the two colums, one to the north (Stalin I think?) and one to the south, just hightailed it back to Soviet territory.

The most consistent explanation I've ever seen stresses that prolly the Soviet commanders realised that they had overextended and eposed themselves to the risk of a Polish counterattack, cutting them off in enemy territory. And that's the reason the offensive stopped, maybe even before the Poles realised the opportunity.

And the French generals somehow took credit.

 

[privatehudson]

Well they were merely following in the footsteps of Napoleon in doing that

 

[expeliarmus]

This is a reply to the first post.
I don't understand why Aguirre (I suppose you mean Lope de Aguirre, as you mention that film) was a traitor... He was just looking for "El Dorado".
If you could tell me his betrayal...
Greetings.

 

[Terje]

Just nitpicking, but isn't that one of the myths of the post-WWI period? It's one of these cases when no one really knows what the heck the a handfull of French generals really did, but somehow it must have been important.

The Red Army's offensive stopped outside Warsaw and the two colums, one to the north (Stalin I think?) and one to the south, just hightailed it back to Soviet territory.

The most consistent explanation I've ever seen stresses that prolly the Soviet commanders realised that they had overextended and eposed themselves to the risk of a Polish counterattack, cutting them off in enemy territory. And that's the reason the offensive stopped, maybe even before the Poles realised the opportunity.

And the French generals somehow took credit.

To be honest, I wouldn't really know. My professor didn't really expand on the issue beyond mentioning that the vision of World Revolution ended with this episode. He just said that the Red Army stopped there, and mentioned a Polish army and some French officers...

 

[Verbose]

This is a reply to the first post.
I don't understand why Aguirre (I suppose you mean Lope de Aguirre, as you mention that film) was a traitor... He was just looking for "El Dorado".
If you could tell me his betrayal...
Greetings.

Well, he's damned by the evidence of his own writing.

It started as a quest for El Dorado, but in the process Aguirre came to renounce not only his allegience to the king of Spain but to all of Europe. The king was no longer his "natural overloed" and had to renounced ("desnaturar" I think was the exact wording).
He would speak of himself as The Traitor. Eventually he came to consider himself as a traitor even greater than Judas, who may have betrayed the Son of God, but Aguirre had betrayed a whole continent in his own mind. It was all part of some very elaborate personal methphysical speculation. And he was stark raving mad in the end.

His ideas on treason, the relationship between the Old and the New World, etc. just fascinate me.

 

[Adler17]

Fan of Klaus Kinski?

Adler

 

[Verbose]

Wener Herzog more likely.

But sure, if you want someone to portary one really insane bastard, get Kinski!

I saw the documentary about their relationship: Insane!
(Kinski threatening to leave the scene of the shoot in S.Am, and Herzog blandly telling him he wouldn't live past the next bend in the river. And he meant it too!)

 

[NBGreenDay]

A note on the American Confederates, the South was under the impression that states had their own rights you see. We were under the impression that this not even 100 year old institution of the "United States" could peacebly been broken when a few of the states no longer wished to unite. The yankees who wouldn't leave Ft. Sumnter had other ideas.

 

[Jack the Ripper]

Originally i wasn't going to mention Kerry, but it's pretty low stabbing you're comrades in the back and then running with it so far as to almost become the leader of the country. Constitutionally nothing he did in vietnam nessesarily qualifies as being a traitor, however when he met with north vietnamese politicians in france in 1971 he could qualify as one.

Otherwise there generally aren't many notable traitors in this country worth mention

 

[Verbose]

Regarding difficult choices the US so far has had a very simple history it would seem.

But seriously, why don't people in the US consider those who joined the CSA as traitors?
They probably would be elsewhere.

 

[JohnRM]

Greatest, in a good way:

Count Claus Von Stauffenberg-tried to assasinate Hitler in '44. Was taken by the Gestapo. Put against a wall, and shot. Last words before being shot: "Long live our Sacred Germany!".

This is the second time that I have seen you say something nice about the Nazis/Hitler.

 

[JohnRM]

Come on! Nobody said Alcibiades. He betrayed Athens to Sparta and Sparta to Athens back again. If there was ever a traitor in history he was it!

Actually, it was Athens - Sparta - Persia - Athens.

 

[Adler17]

Stauffenberg and the assassins of 20th July 1944 were certainly no Nazis (any more)!

Adler