RedRalph
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 20,708
Translates as "no, I cant".
-
Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
Greek police shooting sparks riot
- Thread starter holy king
- Start date
Translates as "no, I cant".
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Read what I write - sure that police serves the government, but in democratic countries (and I believe Greece is democratic), the police is apolitical. It doesn't suppress the oposition, it doesn't serve to suppress basic rights of people. It only protects the law.
Therefore there is no legal or legitimate reason to riot because the police made a mistake, or when you think that the police made a mistake. There are lawful ways how to deal with it.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Correct translation: there is no point in explaining anything to someone who often idealizes regimes such as Chávez's Venezuela, Castro's Cuba, Lukashenko's Belarus or Putin's Russia. It would be a waste of time
holy king
Deity
if however this "opposition" is opposed to the poltical and/or economic structure in greece it is the police's job to suppress it, which was my point.
because if you are opposed to the very political system itself you can go wherever you like it better, but dont dare to try and change it.
RedRalph
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 20,708
Correct translation: there is no point in explaining anything to someone who often idealizes regimes such as Chávez's Venezuela, Castro's Cuba, Lukashenko's Belarus or Putin's Russia. It would be a waste of time
Idealises? Go on, quote me where I idealised Lukashenko (or Putin for that matter)... face it Winner, you think this is bad in a pro-western nation but its not if its Venezuela, or Russia, etc etc. there is no principle at work here, just the governments you like and the ones you dont. Heaven forbid a policeman in "the west" ever beats a gypsy to death and we get to hear you say how its a crime for the gypsy to bloody the poor policemen's truncheon...
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Police ought to protect the property, lives and rights of people.
You can't really compare the "anarchists" to a democratic opposition against an authoritarian regimes, because that would be wrong in so many ways I wouldn't even know where to begin.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
I won't even read this rant, sorry. The phrase "face it, Winner" tells me I don't have to read any further
holy king
Deity
i dont know how it is in the czech republic, but in austria bloodying a policeman's truncheon only get's your face in a police file, not actually in jail.
RedRalph
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 20,708
I won't even read this rant, sorry. The phrase "face it, Winner" tells me I don't have to read any further
Jesus well done man!!! you totally wun teh argumentz!!!
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 15,113
Ah, I see, a true useful idiot is always ready to accept and support the view he sees as part of his ideology - and only that.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Ah, I see, a true useful idiot is always ready to accept and support the view he sees as part of his ideology - and only that.
Could you get any more off-topic and lame?
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 15,113
Could you get any more off-topic and lame?
Yes, you're right - you did exactly this before, so it must be lame:
That's why I use the "useful idiot" phrase so often, it's sooo good description. Still, it's alarming how many people are willing to believe in all that conspiracy crap instead of what's right in front of them.
"Hey, it's making too much sense! There must be something more to it!"
Hey, the police shooting someone is too obvious, there must have been firebombs causing that! And any witnesses to the contrary must be lying!
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
hah, i'm becoming prophetic. I already pointed out that "those bystanders MUST have been terrorists". and look what our winner says.
really, it's becoming predictable.
really, it's becoming predictable.
Since it seems everyone's talking about the original incident, whether or not the shooting was justified, the subsequent riots cannot be excused.
I understand you are having fun impeaching Winner, but simple truth is as follows:
there are countries (democratic ones) where peaceful protests are legal and possible, where police is not above the law and basic human/citizen rights are protected... and then there are countries, where all or part of the above is not true.
In first group of countries, violent rioting as expression of dissent can not be seen as acceptable, in the second group that may be the only option to express this.
I believe all EU countries, including Greece, belong into the first group. Do you want to challenge that? And if not, why bring up what Winner may or may not think about Russia or Venezuela? Seems you are kind of obsessed with him?
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
My three cents, now that holy king has updated the article for us several times.
Personally, I think it's more likely that the cops fired warning shots to defend themselves, than murdered a 14/15/16 year old boy in cold blood, in public. I would guess that the eyewitnesses are probably anarchists themselves. But it has become obvious that the police weren't defending themselves from a firebombing in the heat of the moment.
Now, I posted an example earlier of the Aboriginal riots following the murder of an Aboriginal man in Queensland a few years back. If this kid was murdered in cold blood like that man was, then the people have every right to riot, although not to burn down the property of innocent bystanders. Police property, even government property? Yeah, I'd condone that. But not private businesses.
Sometimes, even in a democratic country, rioting is the only way to get your point across. In Australia last year, during APEC, I wish we'd have actually had some riots. Instead, we had police beating the piss out of innocent, peaceful protestors, routinely breaking the law they were supposed to be enforcing. Not that i'm in the least bit surpristed. Hell, the new pollice commissioner even had the temerity to say: "That's how we do things in NSW now." I believe him. Arresting, assaulting, and outright hospitalising peaceful protestors is exactly how things are done in my part of the country, and it's disgusting, and has no place in a supposedly first world, democratic nation.
This seems like a tangent, but it's not. It's proving my point. If the police murdered a child in cold blood, even if he was being an arse, then rioting is justified, although the targets are the wrong ones. The protestors in Berlin have the right idea.
However, the fact is that the police have already been arrested. As such, there really isn't any need for a violent protest. A protest, yes. Picketing police stations, non-violent resistance as Gandhi called it, all these things can make sure the verdict is the correct one - although I doubt these people care about the truth, they just want police blood - unlike the Palm Island Australian case, where the pig got off despite eyewitness and medical testimony which left no doubt he'd murdered an elderly man in cold blood. People need to calm down.
Regarding the argument between Winner, Yeekim and phillippe: Yeekim went over the top, and has admitted it. Winner however, was right. If people are breaking the law, and it's not justified, as those riots I alluded to earlier were, then they deserve to go to gaol. If that gaol is on an isolated Aegean island, and I believe several Greek prisons are, then so be it.
Regarding the argument between Winner and RRW: Ralph is right. I have never seen Ralph idealise Putin, Lukashenko, Chavez or Castro. I have however seen Winner accuse him of doing so repeatedly.
And Ralph's points are very germaine. Winner, you do do exactly what he is accusing you of. You are horrendously pro-Western biased in your views. Now, there's nothing wrong with being pro-Western, but there is when it reaches the point that the West can do no wrong, whereas anyone anti-West, such as Russia, the Arabs, or Chavez, can do no right, it's ridiculous. And this is the way you are, and everyone on the boards knows it. If they didn't, you wouldn't receive so much damn ridicule for it.
And your responses to Ralph are ridiculous. "I forgot whom I am talking to." What a crock. He asked you a legitimate question, and you sidestepped it - poorly - rather than giving him a response. And are continuing to sidestep it by claiming he's some sort of ridiculously anti-Western, pro-everything you don't like bogeyman.
Answer his damn question. If you do it, and it makes sense, I promise I'll repeatedly link to this thread every time the mean nasty Ralph ever picks on you again. Okay? And I'll do the same if you post just to say something along the lines of: "Ralph hits me with the smilie attack, I can't reason with him, God, Chavez is calling Ralph, aren't you two lovers?"
Three cents, given.
Personally, I think it's more likely that the cops fired warning shots to defend themselves, than murdered a 14/15/16 year old boy in cold blood, in public. I would guess that the eyewitnesses are probably anarchists themselves. But it has become obvious that the police weren't defending themselves from a firebombing in the heat of the moment.
Now, I posted an example earlier of the Aboriginal riots following the murder of an Aboriginal man in Queensland a few years back. If this kid was murdered in cold blood like that man was, then the people have every right to riot, although not to burn down the property of innocent bystanders. Police property, even government property? Yeah, I'd condone that. But not private businesses.
Sometimes, even in a democratic country, rioting is the only way to get your point across. In Australia last year, during APEC, I wish we'd have actually had some riots. Instead, we had police beating the piss out of innocent, peaceful protestors, routinely breaking the law they were supposed to be enforcing. Not that i'm in the least bit surpristed. Hell, the new pollice commissioner even had the temerity to say: "That's how we do things in NSW now." I believe him. Arresting, assaulting, and outright hospitalising peaceful protestors is exactly how things are done in my part of the country, and it's disgusting, and has no place in a supposedly first world, democratic nation.
This seems like a tangent, but it's not. It's proving my point. If the police murdered a child in cold blood, even if he was being an arse, then rioting is justified, although the targets are the wrong ones. The protestors in Berlin have the right idea.
However, the fact is that the police have already been arrested. As such, there really isn't any need for a violent protest. A protest, yes. Picketing police stations, non-violent resistance as Gandhi called it, all these things can make sure the verdict is the correct one - although I doubt these people care about the truth, they just want police blood - unlike the Palm Island Australian case, where the pig got off despite eyewitness and medical testimony which left no doubt he'd murdered an elderly man in cold blood. People need to calm down.
Regarding the argument between Winner, Yeekim and phillippe: Yeekim went over the top, and has admitted it. Winner however, was right. If people are breaking the law, and it's not justified, as those riots I alluded to earlier were, then they deserve to go to gaol. If that gaol is on an isolated Aegean island, and I believe several Greek prisons are, then so be it.
Regarding the argument between Winner and RRW: Ralph is right. I have never seen Ralph idealise Putin, Lukashenko, Chavez or Castro. I have however seen Winner accuse him of doing so repeatedly.
And Ralph's points are very germaine. Winner, you do do exactly what he is accusing you of. You are horrendously pro-Western biased in your views. Now, there's nothing wrong with being pro-Western, but there is when it reaches the point that the West can do no wrong, whereas anyone anti-West, such as Russia, the Arabs, or Chavez, can do no right, it's ridiculous. And this is the way you are, and everyone on the boards knows it. If they didn't, you wouldn't receive so much damn ridicule for it.
And your responses to Ralph are ridiculous. "I forgot whom I am talking to." What a crock. He asked you a legitimate question, and you sidestepped it - poorly - rather than giving him a response. And are continuing to sidestep it by claiming he's some sort of ridiculously anti-Western, pro-everything you don't like bogeyman.
Answer his damn question. If you do it, and it makes sense, I promise I'll repeatedly link to this thread every time the mean nasty Ralph ever picks on you again. Okay? And I'll do the same if you post just to say something along the lines of: "Ralph hits me with the smilie attack, I can't reason with him, God, Chavez is calling Ralph, aren't you two lovers?"
Three cents, given.
Trajan12
Deity
My only real problem with this is the burning of innocent people's cars and private property.
Yeah. When I lived in Cincinnati, there were some faux riots in response to an unarmed youth, running away from police, being shot and killed. He was the 15th African American killed in Cincinnati by police; in the same time span, no white suspects were even shot.
I didn't begrudge the community for being really pissed with the city. I did begrudge them for looting unrelated stores.
