Grigori : Brainstorm Thread

[Guybrush!]

This has probably been said before, but the Grigori need a tweak. Their only real viable strategy is early adventurer rush or somesuch, and that doesn't fit the lore at all. I know how lore often contradicts gameplay, but this seems a bit much.
Anyway, could we think of ideas to fix this problem? I beseech thee, FF community!

 

[Valkrionn]

There's already a rather large tweak in FFPlus, in that the Adventurers spawn separately from Great People. They spawn in the same manner as Scion Awakened.

 

[WarKirby]

Adventurers are the man thing that they have. I don't find that too much of a problem, personally.

I've only ever played one grigori game. I collected 5 adventurers, and assembled them into a DnD style party of heroes.

I had my Fighter, an Immortal. Focusing on pure power and being the team's tank. He had Blitz and mobility, as well as shock/cover II, combat V, heroic strength/defence I&II

I had my Ranger, a Marksman. Focusing firstly on ranged attacks and drill, later taking defensive promotions. He bombards, and defends, and eats suicidal stacks of doom for breakfast..

I had the Black Mage. an Archmage. Mostly with buffing spells. Enchantment I-III, stoneskin, etc. And also fireballs, maelstrom, and force II. He softened up big stacks

Then the White Mage, a Grigori Medic. he mostly acted defensively. Rarely used to actually fight, but he could hold his own in a defensive situation as needed. I wish medics could use some magic

Lastly, my Rogue. An assasin, then later a Shadow. He focused on rapid movement. Mobility I&II, blitz, commando, etc. When I ran into a big stack, he would take out the mages and other weak things, undermining the enemy. he was also easily powerful enough to crush any silly guardsmen that tried to stop him.

I pretty much focused my entire strategy around this little party. I got all the m aster buildings, and kitted them out completely, with everything. It was one of the most enjoyable games I've ever played.

 

[Guybrush!]

Wait...what kind of victory would fit the Grigori lorewise?

 

[WarKirby]

Cultural, I'd say. It's a peaceful isolationist victory condition that doesn't require divine influence.

Or there's always good old conquest.

 

[Guybrush!]

Well are there any small things we can do to steer them towards a cultural victory? It just feels kinda nice when civs have a small push in the lore appropriate direction, but still allow for other stuff.

 

[Rutee]

...Altar? Cassiel, at least, speaks of The One. I know people keep saying the People don't care, but that contradicts their Tier 3 disciple anyway.

 

[JimMorrison]

The Grigori don't really need much help. At turn 20, you get your first Adventurer. Turn him into a Warrior, and wait a few turns to get a couple promos. Once he is a little stronger, have him start gobbling up lairs/graveyards/etc. He will pop GPs, start golden ages, and generally mostly find really cool stuff.

Luck being with you, Orthus will spawn within reach. This first hero should be able to smash him by this point - if not, you may have done something wrong. >.>

By turn 200 or so, this hero should have 200+ exp if you continue using him aggressively. In my last game, I attached a Great Commander, and by the time I was able to upgrade him to a Champion, I sent him with a few Archers to take care of Acheron - it was hardly a fight. He can be the linchpin of your entire operation if he's well cared for, any additional Adventurers are just gravy (turning more than 1 into Archmages can be fun, they can ALL get Twincast!).


I think the only thing that would make them significantly more playable would be if they had easier access to Great Commanders - though you can just play to hit the military techs early enough to get the freebies. And I agree, Altar of Luonnatar(sp?) should be the definitive win for the Grigori, but getting that many Prophets while trying to push Adventurers, is daunting at the least. Maybe if the FF+ version, I am still waiting for that to become absorbed by the base mod.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Wait...what kind of victory would fit the Grigori lorewise?

What about the Altar victory? That seems to fit somewhat... Bringing the God of Creation back into the world to punish all the puny gods Cassiel hates so much and all of their followers. The best part, it can be done without any war whatsoever.

 

[Rutee]

I think the only thing that would make them significantly more playable would be if they had easier access to Great Commanders - though you can just play to hit the military techs early enough to get the freebies. And I agree, Altar of Luonnatar(sp?) should be the definitive win for the Grigori, but getting that many Prophets while trying to push Adventurers, is daunting at the least. Maybe if the FF+ version, I am still waiting for that to become absorbed by the base mod.

You just need 1 GP. But you're never going to get him.

Yes, I am in fact saying "Turn your adventurers into Luonnatars and altar them"

 

[Korias]

You just need 1 GP. But you're never going to get him.

Yes, I am in fact saying "Turn your adventurers into Luonnatars and altar them"

You could run Theocracy, Pop a prophet from a dungeon/lair, or if you've got Unrestricted leaders, play a good guy and get the Amathon's Chosen Prophet event to get that first GP.

 

[Rutee]

You could run Theocracy, Pop a prophet from a dungeon/lair, or if you've got Unrestricted leaders, play a good guy and get the Amathon's Chosen Prophet event to get that first GP.

Theocracy is a late game civic; That's not running specialists for that long, or specifically saving Ardor for step1 of a plan. Having to pull teeth and run a very counterintuitive civic (Come on, Theocracy, as Grigori?) is a very poor way to set up. Why not just give Luonnatars the ability to build level 1 and let things work intuitively?

Also, Culture victories are much harder for them, as they lack a critical +160% or so from the various temples, as well as another +3 base from the OO Temple, and of course the 1 point from other religions. It's not unovercomeable, but it's much, much more difficult then with those temples.

 

[Guybrush!]

Wait...how do you get lunnotar again? I have completely forgotten....

 

[Valkrionn]

Or, you can try the way I set it up, and put your many, many specialists on priests now that they don't interfere with adventurers.

Although originally, the Luonnotar were able to build the whole altar.... Might end up bringing back at least the first stage, like you said.

 

[Tholal]

There's already a rather large tweak in FFPlus, in that the Adventurers spawn separately from Great People. They spawn in the same manner as Scion Awakened.

That sounds too powerful. Free heroes on a regular basis in addition to the standard Great People?

I've been playing some with the Grigori lately and I think they just need something interesting and unique to work on.

One idea I had was to give them a Unique National Wonder. Some sort of Super Museum where they can drop off interesting animal specimens and artifacts for bonuses (kind of like the Carnival, but this accepts magic items in addition to animals). The premise being that the Grigori bring all these things back, put them in their Museum and then get some sort of happiness/money/culture/Adventurer points as bonuses for each item added. If this city is ever captured, the Super Museum (it really should have a better name, maybe Hall of Wonders?) is destroyed, along with all of its contents (museums always seem to be one of the first things ransacked during forceful occupations), and would have to be rebuilt and restocked.

 

[civ_king]

That sounds too powerful. Free heroes on a regular basis in addition to the standard Great People?

I've been playing some with the Grigori lately and I think they just need something interesting and unique to work on.

One idea I had was to give them a Unique National Wonder. Some sort of Super Museum where they can drop off interesting animal specimens and artifacts for bonuses (kind of like the Carnival, but this accepts magic items in addition to animals). The premise being that the Grigori bring all these things back, put them in their Museum and then get some sort of happiness/money/culture/Adventurer points as bonuses for each item added. If this city is ever captured, the Super Museum (it really should have a better name, maybe Hall of Wonders?) is destroyed, along with all of its contents (museums always seem to be one of the first things ransacked during forceful occupations), and would have to be rebuilt and restocked.

So children, yesterday we were at the Hall of Wonders, now does anyone remember who gave the Netherblade to Rathus Denmura?

 

[Onionsoilder]

That Hall of Wonders actually sounds interesting... though I think it needs to be separate from a carnival. Also, for unique weapons and such, the bonuses will have to be very powerful indeed, to make it worthwhile to put it there instead of just giving it to a unit.

 

[hbar]

*snip*...I wish medics could use some magic */snip*

I think this may be the 'small tweak' people are asking for. Except, magic is the realm of the gods, let's put the reins of history back in the hands of man (+5 nerd points).

First, medics should gain passive XP in cities with hospitals. Full stop.

Next, I think medics should get their own promotions (disclaimer - I haven't played the Grig in a long time, and never in FF. These might be redundant). Some useful in cities, some in the field, some both. CAUTION - BRAINSTORM APPROACHING!

• Field Medic I/II/III - applies weak version of March to the stack (10/20/30% heal while moving), has 100% chance to wear off when medic leaves stack.
• Field Surgeon (req. FM III) - gains the ability to completely heal the most damaged unit in the stack, has a 3% chance to fail and reduce said unit to 1HP (maybe kill the unit, Heroes immune to failure?)
• Triage (req. FMI) - ability that kills weakest wounded member of a stack and completely heals 2 strongest wounded units.
• Apothecary - gains a spell that grants strongest qualifying unit a special version of Poisoned Blade that wears off after one combat (use code from Stoneskin). Creates Apothecary building when in cities (+1 ).
• Medical Specialist - costs 1gold in upkeep, adds 2:happy: and 1 in city
• Druggist - adds 2, 10%, 2 in city
• Midwife - Lowers food needed to grow city (is this possible? Otherwise use granary mechanic).
• Insert your idea here!

 

[WarKirby]

So children, yesterday we were at the Hall of Wonders, now does anyone remember who gave the Netherblade to Rathus Denmura?

oh, oh, me! *raises hand*

Laroth !

 

[Redeyes]

I recently read the lore entry for Cassiel and it is very interesting.

In it, both the spirits of the dead and people still alive come before the throne of Cassiel to plead their case, Cassiel - described as weary from the rigors of mortality and time - consoling and ruling over spirits and living alike.
Why do I say ruling? He orders the narrator of the story, Elizabeth, to open your eyes.


I wouldn't mind if the Grigori were given special connection with spirits in game, if only as a "spiritual guidance" spell cast from an UB monument. One could surely take it another step, with dead Grigori returning to the Capital as spirits where they could be attached to your units, cities - or something else entirely. Just brainstorming


Looking at this thread Kael states that the reason Cassiel has philosphical is the synergy between Adventurers and it. If put on a spawning system, perhaps he should be given another, fitting, trait?