Growing Plot to Unite the EU under one non-elected President

[Kyriakos]

Link to video.

Starts with greek language, but most of the documentary is in other languages, primarily english (with greek subs).

The main idea in it is that the troika is not something born out of need, or wish to help, but as a first step in a plan to force countries to privatize, so as to have a select few elites accumulate even a larger percentage of the international wealth.

 

[Leoreth]

Oh, moving from British irrational fear of the EU to Greek irrational blame of the EU.

I know you're currently riled up because of the elections, so I'll simply ignore this.

 

[Tycho]

British tabloid press is a sham(e), yes. A bunch of phone hacking crooks at best.

As for the "conspiracy" to unite Europe in a single political union, it has my full support

, Winner, very funny.

Don't see what the big deal is about Europe being united though; it would essentially be a lot more powerful than the individual nations separated from each other, yes?

What's the whole conspiracy over there like, and what can it be equated to over in America?

 

[GoodSarmatian]

, Winner, very funny.

Don't see what the big deal is about Europe being united though; it would essentially be a lot more powerful than the individual nations separated from each other, yes?

Yes, but individual nations would be less...individual. I'm for a loose federation. Closer than it's now, but not real unity. I don't want Germany to adopt Scandinavia's high alcohol taxes or Hungarian free speech laws and neither do I want Finland to have a Gemany style education system or the Netherlands follow German drug policy (although here in NRW we're already pretty relaxed about pot, cops often just don't give a crap). Any discussion about a European federal state is just hypothetical anyway. It's not a popular idea nowadays, and even if it was I doubt it would be realized within the next couple of decades.

What's the whole conspiracy over there like, and what can it be equated to over in America?

I think the conspiracy is that people in the EU want to create a new Soviet Union and undermine democracy because of political correctness or multicultutalism or something.
In terms of believability it's somewhere between Muslim Obama and Death Panels. Not quite as bad as FEMA concentration camps or Lizardmen.

 

[Winner]

Don't see what the big deal is about Europe being united though; it would essentially be a lot more powerful than the individual nations separated from each other, yes?

Yeah. Europe wastes a lot of potential when individual nation states do the same things redundantly. Clearly, a greater degree of coordination is necessary, and I don't see how this could work without some sort of a political union.

What's the whole conspiracy over there like, and what can it be equated to over in America?

Do you mean what's really happening, or what eurosceptic conspiracy theorists believe is happening?

Yes, but individual nations would be less...individual. I'm for a loose federation. Closer than it's now, but not real unity. I don't want Germany to adopt Scandinavia's high alcohol taxes or Hungarian free speech laws and neither do I want Finland to have a Gemany style education system or the Netherlands follow German drug policy (although here in NRW we're already pretty relaxed about pot, cops often just don't give a crap). Any discussion about a European federal state is just hypothetical anyway. It's not a popular idea nowadays, and even if it was I doubt it would be realized within the next couple of decades.

That's just semantics. A federation can work pretty well with member states maintaining their specific individuality. I doubt the EU would ever interfere with sensitive cultural stuff. What we need now is more economic and political integration. Take for example the opening of the services market - it would help the European economy greatly, but it's being blocked by certain member states who fear their services sectors would be too uncompetitive.

Also, the EU budget is pitifully small, it should be expanded, ideally through direct EU taxation so that individual member states cannot just block everything when they feel like it. It goes without mentioning that this would have to be followed by more democracy on the EU level. I think we talked about that once.

 

[Tahuti]

Also, the EU budget is pitifully small, it should be expanded, ideally through direct EU taxation so that individual member states cannot just block everything when they feel like it. It goes without mentioning that this would have to be followed by more democracy on the EU level. I think we talked about that once.

That would never go well if imposed directly on EU citizens, though a European Corporate Income tax may work out as you desire without inciting public hysteria.

 

[Veles]

*sigh*

What poor, poor souls you Euros are. Your only hope for survival is the loving embrace of Holy Russia. Of course, half of you will have to permanently move to Siberia. But the other half will enjoy the benefits of having an enlightened and unlimitly-authorised person (me) as your God given ruler. I promise to solve all your problems in a week. You'll get a free t-shirt, also.

Seriously, though, it seems logical enough, that EU needs either:
- to streghten its institutions and make them electable by general populace and not by bureaucrats;
or:
- to abandon this whole idea already.

The creating of the figure of the EU president was more of a symbolic maneuvre, imo.


@Leoreth
Don't. Frigging. Move. Bro. Your postcount is 7777. Life must feel complete now, doesn't it? Time to make another account

EDIT: Oh, sorry for trolling, I didn't notice the red thingy as icon.

 

[Leoreth]

@Leoreth
Don't. Frigging. Move. Bro. Your postcount is 7777. Life must feel complete now, doesn't it? Time to make another account

I already had that at 6666, so I'm going to specifically break it with this post. Also, I have a modmod subforum to report to, where my sudden absence wouldn't be seen as positively as here in OT

 

[Flying Pig]

Considering that we've never had an elected Prime Minister (until about 1900-ish, we hadn't had one who had held elected office at all!), I don't really see the fuss

Edited to say that I'm totally wrong about that date (Robert Walpole, although later a Lord, was an MP when appointed) although Lords (who are unelected) made up the overwhelming majority of Prime Ministers until Disraeli in 1868, and it wasn't until 1963 that the PM's status as an MP was so established that Sir Alec Douglas-Home resigned as a Lord to take up the office)

 

[innonimatu]

That's just semantics. A federation can work pretty well with member states maintaining their specific individuality. I doubt the EU would ever interfere with sensitive cultural stuff. What we need now is more economic and political integration. Take for example the opening of the services market - it would help the European economy greatly, but it's being blocked by certain member states who fear their services sectors would be too uncompetitive.

Looking back at the pre-EU and post-EU period and comparing both, the EU has been an economic disaster for its member states. Who should we want more of the same, masochism?
A lot has been promised, and I've lost count of the "growth strategies", growth pacts" and so on, but the EU has failed to deliver. So much that We can reliably take the meaning of any EU project to be the exact opposite of what it is named.

Also, the EU budget is pitifully small, it should be expanded, ideally through direct EU taxation so that individual member states cannot just block everything when they feel like it. It goes without mentioning that this would have to be followed by more democracy on the EU level. I think we talked about that once.

Oh, great, more power to the makers of the present cluster? That's just what we need to clean up after the mess they've made, I'm sure - give them more power!

And the idea that Brussels could actually hold that kind of power is dumb. You'd only be setting up the ground for a more violent break-up of the EU, maybe even a civil war. Because when a crisis gets really though people will blame the central government, and good luck trying to collect any taxes in that situation. Even Spain will probably be having a tough tine remaining together during this crisis (not that I'll be weeping over a breakup of Spain!), after a few centuries of centralization, imagine a newly-created EU government!

 

[Tycho]

Do you mean what's really happening, or what eurosceptic conspiracy theorists believe is happening?

Sure, what do they think is going on?

 

[Leoreth]

Looking back at the pre-EU and post-EU period and comparing both, the EU has been an economic disaster for its member states. Who should we want more of the same, masochism?
A lot has been promised, and I've lost count of the "growth strategies", growth pacts" and so on, but the EU has failed to deliver. So much that We can reliably take the meaning of any EU project to be the exact opposite of what it is named.

The EU has never promised growth. I don't know why you always claim it has.

 

[kronic]

Well, it, and especially the Euro, was certainly sold on the promise that it would increase prosperity throughout the continent. The originial theme of making war in Europe less likely or even impossible has become a lot less important. Ironically enough, how things are run these days at least serves to revive tensions.

 

[Millman]

And for those of you who are religious where are you dieties while all these problems are happening? Are they in some secret hideaway giggling at us struggling.

You know accidents can happen when things go good but even other things can happen when someone chooses to break their promise(public official or not).

 

[Winner]

That would never go well if imposed directly on EU citizens, though a European Corporate Income tax may work out as you desire without inciting public hysteria.

Why not. Perhaps if ordinary citizens saw on their pay slips how little they actually give to the EU they'd stop being so sceptical. EU is very cheap in the great scheme of things, but people only hear about it in connection with obscene lump sums of money that someone gives to someone else.

Looking back at the pre-EU and post-EU period and comparing both, the EU has been an economic disaster for its member states. Who should we want more of the same, masochism?

That was a joke. Right...?

A lot has been promised, and I've lost count of the "growth strategies", growth pacts" and so on, but the EU has failed to deliver. So much that We can reliably take the meaning of any EU project to be the exact opposite of what it is named.

Well, perhaps if the bloody nation states (especially the southern one) stopped being so obstinate and actually did what the EU wants them to (instead of paying lip service to whatever is agreed), these strategies would work. You are blaming the EU for nation states' failures it had no part in and which it couldn't have prevented under the present system - simply because the nation states are too sovereign. If the (democratically chosen) EU commissioners could directly kick nation states' bottoms when necessary, a lot of feces-hitting-the-fan situations could have been prevented.

And the idea that Brussels could actually hold that kind of power is dumb. You'd only be setting up the ground for a more violent break-up of the EU, maybe even a civil war.

Only in your euro-hating fantasies. I am sorry, this is pointless, we're never going to agree on this.

Sure, what do they think is going on?

Depends on who you ask.

Right wing eurosceptics believe the EU to be the latest incarnation of the Socialist Internationale designed to stifle freedom and economy in all the subjugated member states, that is when it is not busy promoting multicultural dystopia and opening immigration floodgates to brown-skinned peoples. The ultimate goal is obviously to dissolve national identities and turn European nations into masses of mindless drones presided over by unelected bureaucrats.

Left wing eurosceptics (you have one in this very thread) believe that the EU is a neoliberal conspiracy to destroy hard-won worker's rights and globalize Europe through destroying its industries and outsourcing everything to China while the capitalist elite concentrates all wealth in its hands. The ultimate goal is to abolish democracy and establish a capitalist corporate rule that exploits workers in favour of bankers, CEOs and other filthy-rich enemies of people.

US Christian fundamentalist eurosceptics believe the EU to be the latest incarnation of the Roman Empire that, according to the Book of Revelations, heralds the coming Apocalypse. Antichrist should be born here, but they don't agree whether it's Sarkozy, Merkel, Barroso, or some other European politician.

 

[Tycho]

I can't help but laugh at all three of those beliefs.

 

[innonimatu]

The EU has never promised growth. I don't know why you always claim it has.

Well, let me see...

Stability and Growth Pact (1997)
Lisbon Strategy (2000)
And the latest, Europe 2020 (2010)
"Europe 2020 is the EU's growth strategy for the coming decade."

just a few examples. We could easily go back to Maastricht and even prior. Except that prior to Maastricht the EEC actually delivered on some of its promises.

 

[Leoreth]

Which were treaties that intended to provide a framework for its constituent economies to grow, yes.

Promoting and providing opportunities is not the same as promising something.

 

[Hehehe]

Sure, what do they think is going on?

Eurosceptic "conspiracy theorists" here believe that Germany and a few other central European countries made a stupid stupid mistake lending money to Greece (comparable to the American subprime loan crisis, except this one was completely made in Europe), and now they're trying to have the whole of Europe foot the bill (keeping in mind that, we Finns, for example, had no stake in the Greek lending fiasco). Also, some uninformed (mostly right wingers) blame this solely on the Greeks for being lazy and irresponsible but they're not thinking about the big picture.

Also, eurosceptism is growing, even among the people who used to be pro-EU. There is some distrust growing towards the EU, I daresay thanks to the way this crisis is being handled. Some people are beginning to question if it is possible to have a functioning union without that union having much political power, while very few are ready to give up sovereignty for the experiment that is EU.

Also, as for the power the EU has in its individual countries, in the end, individual countries always have the final say in things.

 

[Winner]

Meh, that's a typical reaction to any crisis like this. People direct their anger and suspicion at the elites. It would be a surprise if the EU which gets too much flak even in the best of times got spared now.