Denmark introduces border controls; EU ministers to reintroduce passport controls

[innonimatu]

That's a financial problem as a result of a poor welfare system, not an economic problem. Besides, considering the pay-as-you-go system of most social security systems, the youth and birthrate of immigrants, and the low birth rate of the native-born, it results in the exact opposite argument, as you need immigrants to pay for your precious welfare state.

You really ought to explain how come countries "need immigrants" when their unemployment rate keeps rising. You know, the natives will get very pissed about that.

 

[Singularity]

A thing like Schengen is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain, which is why it was destined to fail from the start. It puts an unnatural strain on the rim states who see the highest surge of immigrants, like Greece and Italy.

EU needs to mature a lot more before some of their grandest designs of state engineering can function properly. The monetary and border control policy being right up there at the top of it. Both of them seem to take into account a perfect world where all the variables are foreseeable and controllable.

 

[Leoreth]

That's a financial problem as a result of a poor welfare system, not an economic problem. Besides, considering the pay-as-you-go system of most social security systems, the youth and birthrate of immigrants, and the low birth rate of the native-born, it results in the exact opposite argument, as you need immigrants to pay for your precious welfare state.

Well, first, I don't know how you can reasonably separate economy and social systems when they're both interdependent.

Currently many European countries have a legislation along the lines of "stay x years and get unlimited unemployment aid". Considering this aid is, in the richest EU countries at least, usually higher than even middle class incomes in the immigrants' home countries, immigration into social security system is a problem.

This isn't to say that every immigrant from these countries wants to immigrate into the social system. That would be racist.

 

[Riffraff]

You really ought to explain how come countries "need immigrants" when their unemployment rate keeps rising. You know, the natives will get very pissed about that.

Is it actually established that the unemployment rate keeps rising?

Here in Germany at least, the trend has been towards less unemployment and EU wide it has gone up .5% in 10 years.

 

[Leoreth]

Still, low unemployment isn't low unemployment. That there's a demand for certain jobs doesn't mean every immigrant fits into these jobs.

 

[Patroklos]

If by racist you mean xenophobic, then no.

Its pretty clear that you don't know what that word means.

In any case, is it possible to be for any sort of immigration control and not be xenophobic?

 

[Algeroth]

Still, low unemployment isn't low unemployment. That there's a demand for certain jobs doesn't mean every immigrant fits into these jobs.

This argument works both ways - That there's a demand for certain jobs doesn't mean every native fits into these jobs.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

immigrants of all kinds lose any genuine sense of foreign identity by the third generation.

But can replace it with a twisted sense of foreign identity even more detrimental.

 

[Flying Pig]

In any case, is it possible to be for any sort of immigration control and not be xenophobic?

Yes; for example you could believe that the population should not be increased.

 

[Leoreth]

This argument works both ways - That there's a demand for certain jobs doesn't mean every native fits into these jobs.

Absolutely. I consider "how can you let immigrants in while there are unemployed natives?" an invalid argument. If there's a decent chance for an immigrant to get a free job, I'm all for it - no preference for natives.

 

[Patroklos]

Yes; for example you could believe that the population should not be increased.

Nah, we have shown over and over again that talk like that will get you labeled racist and now apparently xenophobic in the US. Apparently in continental Europe as well now.

 

[Flying Pig]

Nah, we have shown over and over again that talk like that will get you labeled racist and now apparently xenophobic in the US. Apparently in continental Europe as well now.

In Britain yes, but only because it generally is. It's always words to the effect of 'we don't want them coming over here and taking all our jobs - besides, it's not as if they do anything good for society; they're all unemployed stealing our benefits!'

 

[Leoreth]

How is "we don't want them to take all our jobs" racist? Maybe it's selfish, but that's it.

 

[Flying Pig]

How is "we don't want them to take all our jobs" racist? Maybe it's selfish, but that's it.

The point is that the argument hinges on all immigrants being both unemployed and filling every available job at the same time. The simple truth is a lot of British people simply don't want to take low-paid jobs which are only marginally better than benefits, while a lot of immigrants coming from poor countries think £6 an hour is a pretty good deal and snap them up. There are so few of them around, relatively, that they don't make it significantly harder for a British person to get a job if he looks - but the likes of the BNP who are voted for by the lazy and terminally useless who couldn't compete with a Scouser for a job like to blame it on the 'bladdy forriners' rather than themselves. The real racism of course is lumping them 'all' together as if they're some sort of hive-mind, but that's another point.

 

[Singularity]

You get bogged down in the old racist and job immigration trap again. AFAIK this is all about shuffling refugees with no passports or ID around in Europe to avoid congestion at the rim states. State sponsored trains filled with north Africans from Italy to France comes to mind.

 

[Yeekim]

False, anyway; immigrants of all kinds lose any genuine sense of foreign identity by the third generation.

"The problem will sort itself out in a hundred years or so" is your way of saying it does not exist?

 

[Flying Pig]

"The problem will sort itself out in a hundred years or so" is your way of saying it does not exist?

It's also bad logic - if you go to Bradford or anywhere like that you observe that immigrants from one place often choose to live in one area, where people speak the language, sell the same food, and share the same religion. In extreme cases this gets really insular - especailly when they become an overwhelming majority in local schools - and you end up with children whos e parents were born in the UK speaking with a perfect Pakistani accent. You laugh; this actually happens - we got it all the time during my brief stint in London trying to record people down with 'parents' details'.

You get bogged down in the old racist and job immigration trap again. AFAIK this is all about shuffling refugees with no passports or ID around in Europe to avoid congestion at the rim states. State sponsored trains filled with north Africans from Italy to France comes to mind.

Les Frogs have it pretty bad as well with immigrants from their old Empire across the pond. Would have to go somewhere like Denmark or Belgium; one of the places that until now has received the benefits of the Schingen Area without having as bad an immigration problem

 

[Camikaze]

Hasn't it always been mandatory to show some kind of ID when crossing borders between Schengen countries?

Nope. I believe it's been possible for border checks to take place, but it's a rare occurrence.

Afaik you're only free to travel within the Schengen zone if you've got at least a visa for one Schengen state, border controls or not. So you'd still be an illegal immigrant if you illegally entered your first Schengen country (anything else would be absurd anyway).

Yeah, this is correct. The border checks happen when you enter the Schengen zone, but once you're in, there aren't any (excepting random checks, which can happen with or without borders).

I really don't like this move. Firstly, it's the same old pandering to xenophobia. Secondly, it's a majorly backwards step for integration, and only serves to reinforce the notion of intergovernmentalism trumping supranationalism. And thirdly, it'll make it much more of a pain to travel.

 

[Grisu]

How is "we don't want them to take all our jobs" racist? Maybe it's selfish, but that's it.

It's not inherently racist, but the feelings that lead to this statement often are...

it's sad that what started as a good idea is now being destroyed by populists who think they found an easy scapegoat for whatever they perceive to be wrong in their country

 

[Leoreth]

The point is that the argument hinges on all immigrants being both unemployed and filling every available job at the same time. The simple truth is a lot of British people simply don't want to take low-paid jobs which are only marginally better than benefits, while a lot of immigrants coming from poor countries think £6 an hour is a pretty good deal and snap them up. There are so few of them around, relatively, that they don't make it significantly harder for a British person to get a job if he looks - but the likes of the BNP who are voted for by the lazy and terminally useless who couldn't compete with a Scouser for a job like to blame it on the 'bladdy forriners' rather than themselves. The real racism of course is lumping them 'all' together as if they're some sort of hive-mind, but that's another point.

This I can agree with.

I really don't like this move. Firstly, it's the same old pandering to xenophobia. Secondly, it's a majorly backwards step for integration, and only serves to reinforce the notion of intergovernmentalism trumping supranationalism. And thirdly, it'll make it much more of a pain to travel.

Sadly, that's the principle the EU is built upon, and with its current organization it won't be able to gather enough trust and support to move beyond that point

It's not inherently racist, but the feelings that lead to this statement often are...

Sure. All I want is to stop the racism hammer from destroying any reasonable discussion before it even begins.