Gunman Kills 8 in Attack on School in Jerusalem

[skadistic]

First I am not pretending to know anything, if I don't know something I say I don't know it simple.Yet you post like the pallies have no choice but being terrorist. You obviously don't know they do. Second the Israelies do have good PR considering that a lot of people support them and that lawmakers are total slaves to the Israel lobby.Yes that oh so powerful Jewish lobby!!!!Again you pretend to know but don't. Total slaves. So why does the UN treat Israel with such disdain? It doesn't matter if most of the American populous wants a peace treaty as long the the lobby gets the billions it wants.Yup its all about that lobby All about those billions!! I do not condone the attacks on civilians and I would like for a peace treaty that retreated to pre-1948 boarders.Yet you excuse terrorist and have been an apologist for them. I am only attempting to justify the Hamas position and I will say again,And that is why you have merit. You attempt to justify the deplorable actions of terrorist when no one with a shed intellectual dignity or honesty would even try. I LIKED FATAH BETTER.

Sorry about the mindless drone thing, I got a bit angry over the whole thing.

Fatah is no better. They are another terrorist organization who have targeted civilians for reason then to kill jews.

 

[hossam]

Fatah is no better. They are another terrorist organization who have targeted civilians for reason then to kill jews.

thats true, however fateh was(is) willing to negotiate with israel.

 

[skadistic]

thats true, however fateh was(is) willing to negotiate with israel.

Abbas is. Fatah I'm not so sure about.

 

[hossam]

Abbas is. Fatah I'm not so sure about.

well he is their leader, so im guessing fatah wants to negotiate or they would probably have a new one to replace him.

 

[Gecko1]

Fatah is no better. They are another terrorist organization who have targeted civilians for reason then to kill jews.

So all democratically elected governments in Palistine are terrorist organizations. Ok, then Israel needs quality control and maybe you guys might want to start targeting the missile sites instead of trying to hit the leaders. What good is a terrorist without his bombs?

 

[skadistic]

well he is their leader, so im guessing fatah wants to negotiate or they would probably have a new one to replace him.

Arafat "negotiated" too. As long as there are "peace talks" fatah will be seen as the better group. If they can separate them selves from hamas they look better. After the rift and the small civil war fatah is in position to garner international support and money if they can give even an illusion of peace. Ever attack by hamas makes them look even better. I hope there is a new breed in the ranks. One that isn't like Arafat and his cronies. I doubt it. Abbas is most likey a mouth piece who will talk and talk and talk and achieve nothing. Which is what hes been so far.

So all democratically elected governments in Palistine are terrorist organizations.Yes all the elected groups in pally world happen to be terrorist orgs. Thats what you get when all you have is terrorists to chose from Ok, then Israel needs quality control Over what the great mythical Jewish lobby?and maybe you guys might want to start targeting the missile sites instead of trying to hit the leaders.They do. They also target the factories. What good is a terrorist without his bombs?

Ask those who were shot by terrorists or had rockets launched at them. But a terrorist leader is just as dangerous as a terrorist lacky. Like the ones you keep apologizing for.

 

[Elponitnatsnoc]

So all democratically elected governments in Palistine are terrorist organizations.

Actually, yes, they are, but that's not important (or immediately important). Just take a look at someone like Abbas's resume- hardly a tabula rasa. Fatah are willing to negotiate with Israel which makes them the better of the terrorist organizations- so much so that they were taken off the terrorist organization list!

Ok, then Israel needs quality control and maybe you guys might want to start targeting the missile sites instead of trying to hit the leaders. What good is a terrorist without his bombs?

The problem is that they can't without killing civilians because the missile sites are hidden within large population centers. You kill the missile sites, you also kill civilians; it's an unfortunate side effect.

 

[Gecko1]

Ask those who were shot by terrorists or had rockets launched at them. But a terrorist leader is just as dangerous as a terrorist lacky. Like the ones you keep apologizing for.

Ask those who's families are starving to death in the Gaza blockade. Even the UN is calling this pointless blockade the worst humanitarian crisis in years.

 

[skadistic]

Ask those who's families are starving to death in the Gaza blockade. Even the UN is calling this pointless blockade the worst humanitarian crisis in years.

Ask them what? Ask them why they voted for terrorists? Ask them why they let terrorist ruin them? Ask them if they know that when the rockets stop the blockade does too? If the UN is so concerned why don't they feed the Gaza? Should I ask them why Egypt doesn't send in supplies? You do know Egypt controls the wall between it and Gaza right? There is nothing stopping them from getting food in there. Maybe I should ask them why hamas can use its tunnels top smuggle in rockets and parts to make rockets but not food. Do you think hamas starves?

 

[stuge]

The problem is that they can't without killing civilians because the missile sites are hidden within large population centers. You kill the missile sites, you also kill civilians; it's an unfortunate side effect.

And that unfortunate side effect is why strong arm tactics don't work in the long run. Hamas thrives on the notion that Israel is the evil oppressor and every dead palestinian reinforces that notion.

Of course, if Israel loosens up, Hamas and the other bastards will take advantage of it. I'd wager that it'd political suicide in Israel to suggest helping out the Gaza population, if it means more terror attacks. Israel probably has more than its share of hardliners.

I'm going to echo Verbose here: Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

But as long as Palestinians die as collateral damage, Hamas will live. And shoot more rockets into Israel. And Israel builds more settlements and more Palestinians die as an "unfortunate side effect."

And so the crap cycle goes on, where people, who'd rather live their lives in peace, die.

 

[HannibalBarka]

So you're saying Israel should position their soldiers in overtly obvious places which can be hit easily? Yes, that sounds like a terrific idea... I'll have to suggest that!

And you are suggesting for the Palestinian civilians to leave Gaza and go live in the Desert in order for Israel not to kill them as collateral damage : great idea Mr Genuis

Fact is: Israel and Palestine (well at least part of two nations) have chosen the path of violence to achieve their political goal. One is a using terrorist method and is killing innocent civilians (and "non innocent" military, because Hamas and Hezbollah do kill Israeli soldiers), and the other is killing innocent civilians just because they have the malchance to live near "a terrorist" neighbor. When Israel drops a 1 ton bomb in the middle of Gaza to get one terrorist killing tens of civilains that is not accidental collateral damage: that is an unacceptable war crime. They do it because they know the civilians near by are "wortheless" Palestinians. If said terrorist was hiding in Tel Aviv, they wouldn't even consider the "bomb" option.

 

[HannibalBarka]

So is that normal operating procedure? Does the IDF do that every day all day like hamas does?

But if Israeli soldiers do not follow the "normal operating procedure", what is it there for?

 

[HannibalBarka]

It's trite to try to prove who has the moral ground by comparing the number of deaths. What really matters is the intent of the attacks. Surely, you will agree that Hamas tries to kill innocent people and that Israel does not, right? I think this is the most fundemental part of the issue.

No it is not just the intent. If Israel kills 100 innocent civilians just to get 1 terrorist than it is a crime in my book. The "its the terrorists fault, they hide behind civilians and use them as human shield" is bs. If you don't have the means to wage a clean war and wage it nevertheless than you are just doing the same thing the terrorists are doing.

 

[brennan]

So, anyway, if we total up the number of innocent civilians deliberately killed by HAMAS and compare that to the 'collateral damage' due to IDF restraint (sic) over the years, we'll see without a doubt that HAMAS are the real murderers yes?

Yes we will.

The blame lies at the feet of those who use the human shields to maximize civilian deaths when those human shields die.

*hear that sound, that's the sound of Skadistic trying to weasel out of the fact that he lost. Moving goalposts anyone?

How are the hoops and goal post nonexistent when you said from the start that the hoops and goal posts were deaths from the rocket attacks? If you are going to set up goal post at least be honest enough to acknowledge you did so.

I stated quite clearly, twice, that you were free to pick any time period you like to compare the numbers of death both sides cause. I also pointed out that this meant there are no hoops or goalposts and invited you to provide any sort of counter-evidence you liked. Your objection is therefore entirely devoid of meaning and rather foolish.

You fail.

The IDF kills more civilians than HAMAS does.

Regardless of intent, I find that despicable.

 

[brennan]

Post-1967 Palestinian & Israeli deaths from occupation & violence

As of late APRIL 2006, how many Israelis and Palestinians, respectively, have died from Palestinian non-state violence and Israeli state violence?

SHORT ANSWER: 1,133 Israelis and an estimated 5,144 Palestinians (including 952 children) have been killed since September 2000. From UN data, the post-1967 avoidable mortality ...in the Occupied Palestinian Territories totals 300,000 and the post-1967 under-5 infant mortality 183,000 (of which 90% has been avoidable) - as compared to 2,178 ...Israeli terrorism deaths (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs figures).

Source.

Any intelligent counter, or more blathering about goalposts?

 

[Verbose]

It's trite to try to prove who has the moral ground by comparing the number of deaths. What really matters is the intent of the attacks. Surely, you will agree that Hamas tries to kill innocent people and that Israel does not, right? I think this is the most fundemental part of the issue.

But the discussion here is about methods.

Hamas has resorted to terrorist tactics as a method. The IDF uses strafing and shelling as methods.

If you want to look at intents, Hamas intent is not terrorism per se. It's national liberation, as they percieve the situation.

Whether this mean the complete erradication of Israel or not, well the hardliners are clear about that, but other groups within Hamas were willing to go for at least tacit acceptence of Israels existence. That is, before they decided to fight Fatah instead...

The present shayt situation was never necessary, not unlikely, but not necessary.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If Hamas had the same toys that Israel does, they wouldn't have to be suicide bombing themselves. They then would be able to target Israel military, which they don't have access to by using suicide bombers. The higher moral ground in this case is gained by technology, not superior morality. Israel has the luxury of technology and in that regard has the option to chose the moral highground. Hamas does not have this oportunity.

I asume no one takes this post as support for Hamas. Since I do not support either side.

 

[skadistic]

*hear that sound, that's the sound of Skadistic trying to weasel out of the fact that he lost.No its not. Moving goalposts anyone?
I stated quite clearly, twice, that you were free to pick any time period you like to compare the numbers of death both sides cause. I also pointed out that this meant there are no hoops or goalposts and invited you to provide any sort of counter-evidence you liked. Your objection is therefore entirely devoid of meaning and rather foolish.Devoid? So please tell me where my objection is devoid exactly.

You fail.What did I fail exactly?

The IDF kills more civilians than HAMAS does.The blame for the deaths of human shields lay at the feet of those who use them.

Regardless of intent, I find that despicable.

Thats nice.

Source.

Any intelligent counter, or more blathering about goalposts?

So does that tell you how many were human shields? Yes more pallies have died I never disputed that but who is really to blame. Its clear the pallies are when they use them as human shields but you aren't intellectually honest enough to admit that.

 

[skadistic]

If Hamas had the same toys that Israel does, they wouldn't have to be suicide bombing themselves.Thats pure BS and you know it. There is no need to use suicide bombers at all. They can always go down the path of peace. They then would be able to target Israel military,Why do they have to target anyone? which they don't have access to by using suicide bombers. But they would rather target civilians and they do go after the military. Patrols of the IDF are routinely attacked.The higher moral ground in this case is gained by technology, not superior moralityNo its gained by tactics. The morally high ground belongs to those who target civilians. Israel has the luxury of technology and in that regard has the option to chose the moral highground. Hamas does not have this oportunity.Sure they do they don't have to wantonly kill civilians now do they.

I asume no one takes this post as support for Hamas. Since I do not support either side.

No not support just another apologist who tries and fails to justify the terrorists who target children.

 

[classical_hero]

This thread is pointless. It is a shame that an awful thing happened and yet people are trying to take sides on who is better. No one is better when it means that people die.