Haarbals fantasy civ pack

[Haarbal]

whoohooo 100th post on my tread
i don't think i'll ever create a full size own mod. essprecially with the spring coming up, i turn into some weird hyperactive jumping around freak , with a lack of concentration (which i have a lot of times, even without spring coming up). so i don't think i'll ever create a full mod, but i'm happy to do some parts of mods, like these civs. at the moment i'm following the moon colonization project, and i'm thinking about helping with that (if JBG agrees with that ) on making civs for that, maybe creating some terrain, techs, stuff like that.

 

[Leitmotif]

Haarbal,

I wonder why you have so many combinations of the same leader traits? I think the Spiritual/Philosophical treat is repeated *five* times, while some other combinations of traits are just simply left out. I play as Mao in vanilla civ, and i was saddened to learn that there is no Phil/Org combo in your mod.

Perhaps for the next version you might explore all the various combinations? Or at least the ones available in vanilla civ. I would love to see that.

Aside from that though, i think your leaders bring a completeness to an already awesome mod. It would be great if you could work with Kael on his leaders when phase 2 starts.

Thanks alot!
Leit

 

[Chammadai]

whoohooo 100th post on my tread
i don't think i'll ever create a full size own mod. essprecially with the spring coming up, i turn into some weird hyperactive jumping around freak , with a lack of concentration (which i have a lot of times, even without spring coming up). so i don't think i'll ever create a full mod, but i'm happy to do some parts of mods, like these civs. at the moment i'm following the moon colonization project, and i'm thinking about helping with that (if JBG agrees with that ) on making civs for that, maybe creating some terrain, techs, stuff like that.

I assume that there are people who would be glad to help you make a mod. I'd like to give you a hand although I believe I'd more useful when it comes to fluff than mechanics. And a mod doesn't need to be created within a week you know, you may slowly expand it over time leaving as much time for jumping around for yourself as you like . And if you get tired of it you can always cease creation process.
I just think that you have the abiliy to create a mod so it would be a waste to forget those civs. And another fantasy mod would fun as well

 

[Dragonlord]

any other comments? favourite trait combinations missing (haven't checked this before releasing)? more white flags showing up (if so, which ones)?

haarbal

Since you mention it: for me, the civs are all (as far as I remember just now) showing BLACK flags, though with different devices. Kind of hard to tell the AI from the barbarians this way.
Otherwise, many many thanks for your work - Kaels mod is so much more fun with fantasy civs!

 

[Haarbal]

Since you mention it: for me, the civs are all (as far as I remember just now) showing BLACK flags, though with different devices. Kind of hard to tell the AI from the barbarians this way.
Otherwise, many many thanks for your work - Kaels mod is so much more fun with fantasy civs!

all of them are?
thats a real problem. in an earlier version only the undead had that, but if all the civilizations are getting it
i figured that it might come because of the colour combination (i really can't think of anything else). because the undead had it, and their colours are pink/purple with black and barbs have black. not sure though if this is causing it. ill open up a tread in the main C&C

 

[Haarbal]

Haarbal,

I wonder why you have so many combinations of the same leader traits? I think the Spiritual/Philosophical treat is repeated *five* times, while some other combinations of traits are just simply left out. I play as Mao in vanilla civ, and i was saddened to learn that there is no Phil/Org combo in your mod.

Perhaps for the next version you might explore all the various combinations? Or at least the ones available in vanilla civ. I would love to see that.

Aside from that though, i think your leaders bring a completeness to an already awesome mod. It would be great if you could work with Kael on his leaders when phase 2 starts.

Thanks alot!
Leit

when i am creating the civs, i'm just looking at the leader portrait, figuring what kind of figure it would be and what traits he could have, not comparing it with previous civs. so i also don't have a clue which combos are in and which are not (i only remember it if i put in a lot of a certain trait, like aggressive). i'll put the come Phil/Org in today, and upload it again. any other combos that i forgot (probably with financial)?

haarbal

 

[Leitmotif]

I'll add it up for you, and thanks for the timely responce!

We've got... 19 civs with two leaders each, which is 38 leaders. This means, with the 8 traits, we can have a possible (non repeating) match up of 28 leaders. That leaves 10 leaders that will have repeating traits no matter what. This is fine. But before you start doubling up on traits, you might as well fill out the ones that arn't covered.

Will post again once i figure it out. Shouldn't be long.

 

[Chammadai]

I've already got it figured and sent it to Haarbal (just waiting for reply...). No one trait combination occurs more than twice and each is used at least once, though I tried to apply them logically. Here's the list:

Centaur:
- Silverback (Exp/Fin)
- Stompfoot (Cre/Org)
Chaos:
- Mab (Exp/Ind)
- Pitface (Agg/Spi)
Dark Dwarves:
- Bartal (Agg/Ind)
- Shankor (Ind/Phi)
Dark Elves:
- Arachna (Agg/Cre)
- Meandor (Agg/Phi)
Dwarves:
- Fangir (Fin/Org)
- Ironfist (Ind/Org)
Elves:
- Empress Julia (Cre/Org)
- Serene (Cre/Exp)
Frostlings:
- Kargoth (Agg/Exp)
- Leandon (Phi/Spi)
Goblins:
- Gortrul (Agg/Fin)
- Rupsta (Fin/Ind)
Halflings:
- Marinus (Cre/Ind)
- Titutia (Cre/Fin)
Human:
- Anon (Exp/Phi)
- Ke-nan (Exp/Org)
Mefolk:
- Marina (Fin/Phi)
- Pearlfin (Cre/Fin)
Minotaur:
- Grongar (Agg/Org)
- Vulgon (Exp/Ind)
Orcs:
- Azktor (Agg/Exp)
- Skulkan (Exp/Spi)
Overlords:
- All-devourer (Fin/Ind)
- Xabu (Ind/Spi)
Sskrathi:
- Tragar (Exp/Phi)
- Xandorn (Agg/Phi)
Forest Ancients:
- Grshkarn (Org/Phi)
- Pelixa (Cre/Spi)
Tigran:
- Sable (Fin/Spi)
- Yaka (Phi/Spi)
Undead:
- Nekron (Agg/Org)
- Nieludh (Org/Spi)
Wood Elves:
- Ehlenna (Cre/Phi)
- Jakryn (Cre/Spi)

 

[Leitmotif]

Okay, so i crunched the combo numbers and everything adds up like this.

In descending order of trait representation...

=========================================================

Total Agressive = 18

Agressive/Spiritual x3
Agressive/Financial x5
Agressive/Philosophical x1
Agressive/Organized x3
Agressive/Expansive x2
Agressive/Creative x1
Agressive/Industrious x3


Total Spiritual= 14

Spiritual/Agressive x3
Spiritaal/Financial x 3
Spiritual/Philosophical x5
Spiritual/Organized x0
Spiritual/Expansive x1
Spiritual/Creative x 1
Spiritual/Industrious x1


Total Financial = 13

Financial/Agressive x5
Financial/Organized x2
Financial/Expansive x1
Financial/Philosophical x0
Financial/Creative x0
Financial/Industrious x 2
Financial/Spiritual x3


Total Philosophical= 7

Philosophical/Organized x0
Philosophical/Creative x0
Philosophical/Agressive x1
Philosophical/Spiritual x5
Philosophical/Expansive x 1
Philosophical/Financial x 0
Philosophical/Industrious x0


Total Industrious = 7

Industrious/Agressive x3
Industrious/Creative x0
Industrious/Organized x 1
Industrious/Philosophical x0
Industrious/Financial x2
Industrious/Spiritual x1
Industrious/Expansive x0


Total Organized = 5

Organized/Agressive x3
Organized/Spiritual x0
Organized/Creative x1
Organized/Expansive x1
Organized/Financial x2
Organized/Philosophical x0
Organized/Industrious x1


Total Expansive = 6

Expansive/Agressive x2
Expansive/Organized x1
Expansive/Philosophical x1
Expansive/Creative x0
Expansive/Spiritual x1
Expansive/Organized x1
Expansive/Industrious x 0


Total Creative = 3

Creative/Spiritual x1
Creative/Agressive x1
Creative/Philosophical x0
Creative/Expansive x0
Creative/Industrious x0
Creative/Organized x1
Creative/Finanical x0


Agressive = 18
Spiritual = 14
Financial = 13
Industrious = 7
Philosophical = 7
Expansive = 6
Organized = 5
Creative = 3

=========================================================

Right!

So, basically what this large mess means is that some combinations, as you can tell, are largely over represented, whereas some simply don't exist at all.

What i suggest is that you look at the table and take the biggest clusters of trait occourances and pair them up with traits without a mate, so to speak

For example,

In the Spiritual table,

Spiritual/Agressive x3
Spiritaal/Financial x 3
Spiritual/Philosophical x5
Spiritual/Organized x0
Spiritual/Expansive x1
Spiritual/Creative x 1
Spiritual/Industrious x1

You will notice there are *5* occourances of Spiritual/Philosphical, whereas there are none of Spiritual/Organized. What you would do then, is take one Spritual/Philosophical leader, Leandon of the Frostlings for example, and make him Spiritual/Organized. This would begin to balance out the combinations.

Also, you might have noticed that there are only THREE creative leaders in the entire mod. This is a trait that could use alot more representation. However, you did a good job of the Expansive leaders, because there are only two expansive combinations that don't exist. The aim here should be balance.

Ideally, there should be a match for every trait, and then once you've done that you can begin to double up. I think i know why there are tons of Agressive and Spiritual civs, because their traits work really well with the FFH mod. So, when you come to reusing certain traits, i would suggest reusing the Agressive traits and the Spiritual traits.

Remember that when you give a leader a trait that isn't represented, you should be drawing from the traits that have the highest number of occourances first (Such as Philosophical/Spiritual, or Financial/Agressive). It's easier to do this when you refer to the chart i provided.

If you want, i could draw up a list for you if you don't have the time. Let me know. Thanks for listening, and good luck!

Leit

 

[Leitmotif]

That list looks great Chammadai, but make sure to check your math with my chart to make sure we haven't missed anything. If everything checks out fine that list could easily be used as a replacement.

Which traits have two occourances in your list? If we could make them Spiritual and Agressive ones, we'd be set.

Check it out,
Leit

 

[Kael]

Also remember Philosophical and Industrious probably shouldn't be combined, they are a little to good together.

 

[Snake Pliskeen]

This I cant really understand, why nobody agrees to combine philosophical and industrious traits? Even in the original leaders none of them has those 2 traits. In my opinion there are some couple of traits that are very good combined together: for example, Spiritual and Financial, that most of the times allows to earn a big amount of money, founding religions and getting +1 gold from tiles when other traits earn 2 gold. Most of people think money is not so useful in Civ4 but getting enough to upgrade your own stupid warriors or later your archers to longbowmen can make a real difference in the game. Even aggressive and expansive, thanks to the possibility to build barracks and granary at half cost, can give some advantages at the beginning of the game for spreading a lot of cities. So, why everybody thinks phi and ind are too good together? Ok, who builds some wonders can get some GL faster with those 2 traits, but that'all. Furthermore it looks very logical that who builds more wonders can get more leaders! It looks totally illogical to me that a Civ as England, for example (Phi and Fin), only because sets a citizen as priest or as scientist can get more GL than a Civ with a Great Wonder built. I think all peaceful players who love to create an empire without wars would appreciate to play with such traits. I would like to know your opinions.

 

[Leitmotif]

I included the trait combination on purpose.

In this mod, the Ind/Phil combo wouldn't be a tad unbalanced at all. If you look at the tool tip on Philosophical in FFH, it's +50% GP production instead of the +100% in vanilla civ. It's half the bonus. I believe this was intended by Kael, because a +100% GP bonus would be out of control in FFH. I would like to see the Ind/Phil combo implemented in one of Harbaal's leaders because it would give us a chance to test it for Kael's mod before he starts making the leaders himself.

'nuff said.
Leit

 

[Chammadai]

Yeah, I'd like to try playing ind/phi as well and I still believe that in your mod it's cre/spi that is overpowered, Kael

I'm pretty sure I haven't missed anything cause I made a chart with all the trait combination and filled it up until it was full

Here goes (I don't repeat combos, so if agg/phi is under aggresive it won't appear under philosophical as well):

Aggresive:

Agg/Spi - Pitface (Chaos)
Agg/Phi - Meandor (Dark Elves), Xandorn (Sshrathi)
Agg/Org - Grongar (Minotaur), Nekron (Undead)
Agg/Ind - Bartal (Dark Dwarves)
Agg/Fin - Gortrul (Goblins)
Agg/Exp - Azktor (Orcs), Kargoth (Frostlings)
Agg/Cre - Arachna (Dark Elves)

Creative:

Cre/Spi - Jakryn (Wood Elves), Pelixa (Forest Ancients)
Cre/Phi - Ehlenna (Wood Elves)
Cre/Org - Empress Julia (Elves), Stompfoot (Centaur)
Cre/Ind - Marinus (Halflings)
Cre/Fin - Titutia (Halflings), Pearlfin (Merfolk)
Cre/Exp- Serena (Elves)

Expansive:

Exp/Spi - Skulkan (Orcs)
Exp/Phi - Anon (Human), Tragar (Sshrathi)
Exp/Org - Ke-nan (Human)
Exp/Ind - Vulgon (Minotaur)
Exp/Fin - Mab (Chaos), Silverback (Centaur)

Financial:

Fin/Spi - Sable (Tigran)
Fin/Phi - Marina (Merfolk)
Fin/Org - Fangir (Dwarves)
Fin/Ind - Rupsta (Goblin), All-devourer (Overlords)

Industrious
Ind/Spi - Xabu (Overlords)
Ind/Phi - Shankar (Dark Dwarves)
Ind/Org - Ironfist (Dwarves)

Organized:
Org/Spi - Nieludh (Undead)
Org/Phi - Grishkarn (Forest Ancients)

Philosophical:
Phi/Spi - Yaka (Tigran), Leandon (Frostlings)

28 combinatations total

The ones that are used twice are:
Agg/Phi, Agg/Org, Agg/Exp, Cre/Spi, Cre/Org, Cre/Fin, Exp/Phi, Exp/Ind, Fin/Ind, Phi/Spi

10 in total

Cheers

EDIT: I forgot to include Kargoth and Silverback in the list. Duh.

 

[Leitmotif]

Looks great.

That should cover everything, Haarbal

 

[Haarbal]

everybody agrees on this combination of traits?
if so, i'll put them in tomorrow

haarbal

 

[Janusi]

It also appears that several civs don't have an opening diplomacy text. The Minotaurs and the Wood Elves certainly. I just get the standard options but no welcoming words.

 

[onedreamer]

Also remember Philosophical and Industrious probably shouldn't be combined, they are a little to good together.

not really, it all depends on the victory conditions. Say you have conquests and domination as victory conditions. Well ok, this combo in that case is probably the most useless.

 

[onedreamer]

everybody agrees on this combination of traits?
if so, i'll put them in tomorrow

haarbal

in case you want later on to implement good vs. evil wars I don't think those combination is very appropriate because of high concentration of "evil" civs with agg trait. I think at least one dwarf leader should be aggressive, and maybe one centaur too. Also, maybe Julia could be Phi/Org, just to have at least one of the two elves Phi.

 

[Chammadai]

in case you want later on to implement good vs. evil wars I don't think those combination is very appropriate because of high concentration of "evil" civs with agg trait. I think at least one dwarf leader should be aggressive, and maybe one centaur too. Also, maybe Julia could be Phi/Org, just to have at least one of the two elves Phi.

Ehlenna of Wood Elves is philosophical. I wanted to give most of the elves 'creative' trait for I assumed that this wonderous race would specialise in crafting. And I still think that since she is an 'Empress' she is more concerned with running an empire than philosophical debates. You could switch traits of Grishkarn (Forest Ancients) and Julia but I really believe that a venerable ent would be much more philosophical.

And you're right, evil civs get most of the aggressive trait. I assumed that it would be those guys who fight and squabble all the time, even between themselves and therefore are always ready to put up a fight, while those more 'good' races concentrate on other fields which make them more 'good'. They still are alllowed to field large armies but most of the time it would be the bad guys who would invade and then the good ones counterattack.