Half of the US bans abortion. Then what?

Kavanaugh believes contraception = abortifacient. I would not rule out someone like him similarly stretching definitions as they see fit to meet their ends. I don't see anyone making a connection directly between miscarriage and abortion but it isn't that far off from equating the pill with abortion.

I don't think they will outright ban abortion but I also think people pinning that hope on 5 guys deciding to put the legitimacy of the court over their own personal desires and ideology is a stretch. It is also much harder to predict how 5 guys are going to vote on the matter than judging public sentiment via polls.


Roberts has some, and it is very minimal, concern for the legitimacy of the Court. But that's about protecting his legislative record. Not about any ethical concerns on his part. The others, they just want the power to impose their will, and see the Constitution and constitutional law as an obstacle to be worked around. The whole question is the means that they use to work around it. And how far they can get. I think it was Thomas who recently made a statement about undoing Griswold v Connecticut. Which is the case which set the foundation for Roe. The principle of G v C is people have a fundamental right to privacy in personal actions and decisions. What this means is that the government has to have a compelling public interest to outlaw such things as abortion, but even just sex. So laws against homosexual acts, even oral sex between consenting heterosexual adults, the constitutional basis for striking down such laws is G v C, not Roe. Overturning G v C means the sex police are fully set loose.

Eliminating the right to privacy isn't just about putting the Christian fascists in the driver's seat, and unleashing the Handmaid's Tale. It is also, and perhaps more importantly, about the further expansion of Crony Capitalism. For if the government has the power to enter and control your personal life, how is your employer not granted the same rights?

As to how to do it, I'll copypasta from reddit.

BCSWowbagger2 [score hidden] 14 hours ago*


The dirty little secret of American law is that Roe v. Wade was overturned over 25 years ago.

In the case Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the Supreme Court upheld the right to an abortion that had been guaranteed by Roe, but did so on an entirely different basis. Roe had built up a "trimester" framework for abortion rights that was based on... well, not much. Blackmun says about ten words about the first-trimester boundary, vaguely gesturing toward contemporary "maternal health" statistics that are now 45 years out of date and placing the second-trimester boundary at "viability," which is also a moving target as medical technology advances.

And, in practice, the "trimester" framework was itself a bit of sleight-of-hand, since Roe's companion case, Doe v. Bolton, opened up an "exception" to the trimester framework that was so broad it effectively bypassed it altogether. Roe held that the State could legally protect fetal life later in development, with the exception that a mother could always procure an abortion to protect her "life or health." Doe held that "health" encompassed "all factors -- physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman's age -- relevant to the wellbeing of the patient." The legal effect of this was that any prohibition of late-term abortion could be bypassed by a mother going to an abortionist and saying, "I want an abortion, and not getting one would cause me emotional distress, which would compromise my health." Abortionist agrees, abortion happens, state can't do nuffin' about it. In short, the United States had a regime of abortion on demand, and anything that got in the way of this in any substantive way was struck down as unconstitutional.

That was the law of the land from 1973-1991, and the Supreme Court enforced it pretty vigorously. There were occasional allowances -- as in Harris v. McRae and Webster v. Reproductive Health Services -- but for everyone one of those there was an Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists or Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health.

In 1992, the Supreme Court heard Planned Parenthood v. Casey, a case about parental consent and notification laws passed in Pennsylvania by pro-life Democratic Gov. Bob Casey (father of today's Sen. Bob Casey, Jr., who does not share his father's pro-life convictions). The Court, now staffed mostly by Republican appointees, was fully expected to overturn Roe. But it didn't do that. Justices Anthony Kennedy, O'Connor, and Souter, all appointed by GOP presidents, broke ranks and wrote a downright strange plurality decision that upheld Roe on the grounds that it was... well, it probably wasn't correct, the Court decreed, but it was precedent, and people relied on it. So they didn't overturn it, but kinda went and rebuilt it. The basis of the abortion right seems to have moved from the "maternal health" basis in Roe to Anthony Kennedy's heart-of-liberty clause:

These matters, involving the most intimate and personal choices a person may make in a lifetime, choices central to personal dignity and autonomy, are central to the liberty protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State.

I say "seems" because the plurality in Casey is turgidly written and self-contradictory, like many opinions by Anthony Kennedy, and it's really difficult to work out what the actual legal conclusions are and the principles behind them and how they can be separated from Anthony Kennedy's mood about the case. Abortion opponents and supporters alike really, really hate Casey, because it doesn't really make sense -- arguably, it makes even less sense than Roe, which it purported to replace because of the deep defects in Roe.

The trimester framework was junked altogether, and the new test for whether an abortion regulation was constitutional or not imposed an "undue burden" on the mother seeking an abortion. Using this new test, the plurality went on to uphold most, but not all, of the Pennsylvania abortion restrictions in question.

But what constitutes an "undue burden"? I'm glad you asked! Nobody knows! Casey wasn't all that clear about it, lower courts disagree about it, and the Supreme Court has gone back and forth on its meaning several times since Casey.

That means the meaning and scope of the "undue burden" test has been the battlefield for abortion in the courts for the last twenty-five years. Is it an undue burden to ban the partial-birth abortion procedure (also known as "dilation and extraction")? The Supreme Court of 2000 says "yes", that's too tough a burden. The Supreme Court of 2007 says "no", that's fine. That's one obvious example, but you could list literally hundreds of these cases on dozens of issues: are parental notification laws an undue burden? How about parental consent laws? Spousal consent? Spousal notification? 3-hour waiting periods? 24-hour waiting periods? 72-hour waiting periods? Bans of specific procedures? Blanket bans after a certain number of weeks? With rape exceptions? Without rape exceptions? Right-to-know laws that require abortionists to provide certain state-designated information to mothers considering abortion? Mandatory pre-abortion ultrasounds? Heartbeat monitors? Surgical center requirements? Mandatory ambulance agreements? Admitting privilege requirements? The pro-life movement has been very, very clever about finding new ways to disrupt the abortion process that have a facially constitutional justification and thus have a good shot at surviving judicial review as not being "undue burdens." And even when one gets struck down, we just find another avenue of attack and get back to it.

It's pretty unlikely, in my view, that the Supreme Court will come out and say "Roe v. Wade was wrong the day it was decided, and it is wrong today." Not with Roberts on the Court.

I expect they will start out under the Casey test, interpreting "undue burden" very narrowly. Justice Kavanaugh did just that in Garza v. Hargan, where he concluded that the U.S. could refuse to facilitate an abortion for an illegal immigrant minor in U.S. custody as long as a sponsor for her immigration is "expeditiously" found and she is released into the sponsor's custody (and then the sponsor can facilitate the abortion).

From there, the floodgates will open. There's a zillion undue burden cases in state courts today -- just off the top of my head, there are clinic-regulation cases in Kentucky and Louisiana and I think Virginia, all of which would give the Supremes a chance to explicitly or effectively reverse Whole Women's Health v. Hellerstadt (2016), a case where a 5-3 Court (would've been 5-4 if Scalia hadn't died) struck down verrrrrry similar clinic regulations in Texas.

Once Casey has been effectively undermined, the road is opened to a full-on reversal of Casey. Kavanaugh explained how this is done in his testimony to Congress:

Well the factors the Supreme Court looks at are whether the decision is not just wrong, but grievously wrong, whether it's inconsistent with the law that's grown up around it, what the real-world consequences are, including workability and reliance. One of the genius moves of Thurgood Marshall among many genius moves he made as a lawyer was to start litigating case by case. He knew Plessy was wrong the day it was decided, but he also knew, as a matter of litigation strategy, the way to bring about this change was to create a body of law that undermined the foundation of Plessy. He started litigating cases and showing, case by case, that separate was not really equal. He did it in cases like Sweatt vs. Painter and many other cases. He built up a record over time. By the time he went to the Supreme Court to argue Brown v. Board of Education, he had shown its inconsistency with the law built up around for those who weren't otherwise as quickly on board with the idea that Plessy was wrong the day it was decided. He was taking no chances. By the time it got to Brown v. Board of Education, the foundations for overturning Plessy had been strengthened by showing what the real world consequences were and by building up a body of law that was inconsistent with the principle—the erroneous principle set forth in Plessy. He had a strategic vision of how to do this, which was brilliant, and he effectuated it with lawyers over time, litigating case after case and building up factual records that would show the badge of inferiority from separate educational facilities, and separate facilities, more generally. That's how he was able to show that the precedent, even with principles of stare decisis in place, should be overturned.

Most people have never heard of Casey. They've heard of Roe. But Roe is already dead. Casey is the abortion law of the land today. Overturning Casey kills what people think of as Roe (which... that's a complicated mess anyway, because most people have no idea what Roe actually did or what it established in practice, but let's not digress), and returns abortion policy to the states without ever getting a big scary headline like "SUPREMES KILL ROE!" from the press, which strongly favors expansive abortion rights and access.

https://np.reddit.com/r/NeutralPoli..._ways_can_abortion_rights_be_limited/e7f48h0/
 
Roberts has some, and it is very minimal, concern for the legitimacy of the Court.
I find this case to be overblown to be honest. I think this perception comes from his upholding of the ACA. But remember he neutered that law by removing the ability of the Federal government to require the states set up enhanced Medicare and Medicaid exchanges (at Federal expense). That single action completely undermined the law and has made the system borderline unworkable.

At the same time he struck down bipartisan campaign finance reform in one of the most underhanded ways possible. The case at trial wasn't about the entire campaign law but he ordered the claimants go back and reframe their entire case (which was originally quite limited) around that premise. Then he cut down the entirety of the campaign finance reform law. That's not what someone who is concerned about the legitimacy of the Court does, in my opinion.

Moreover, (to repeat myself from elsewhere) the temptation to be the guy who ended the baby holocaust has to be a tempting prize for someone of extreme conservative bent. I'm not saying Roe v Wade will be outright overturned but I caution against discounting that possibility entirely.

And I think most will agree that regardless of whether or not they outright overturn Roe v Wade, this court will at least drastically undermine the ability of women in this country to get legal and safe abortions.

I just hope that when he overturns California state laws that regulate fake women's health centers* that the state simply ignores the ruling.



*There's been an explosion of clinics backed by churches that claim to offer services to pregnant women in need that actually do not anything of the sort. Hell, there has been cases where these 'clinics' fail to even deliver things they promised women such as diapers and baby formula to convince them to keep the child. They also cannot usually perform OBGYN exams because none of the workers are healthcare professionals and they don't help with family planning other than to say 'use the rhythm method'.

I don't want to sidebar the whole conversation but the gist of it is that these clinics outright lie to patients and the state of California stepped in and said that if the clinics do not meet certain guidelines then they have to put up a sign saying it is not an actual health service clinic. The sign also gives out the phone number to actual abortion and women's health services. It's basically the reverse situation of Texas requiring abortion clinics to have hallways of specified dimensions.

This law will almost certainly be overturned by Roberts and I hope my state ignores the court's ruling. This court is illegitimate since Merrick Garland was denied a hearing and was made even more of a sham by the Kavanaugh appointment. McConnell has also signaled he's fine with appointing yet another justice in 2020 if one of the current members dies or retires which goes to show how much the system is broken.
 
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In my opinion, when discussing Robert's concern about the legitimacy of the court it is important to remember not only that Citizens United happened but how it happened. The process itself was almost as big of a shocker as the ruling itself at the time. The guy who did that may pay lip service to the concept of legitimacy of the court but actions speak louder than words.
 
What about this?
Well, prosecuting people who are drunk is fairly straightforward, so long as they do things that are accepted as things you can't do when you are drunk, like driving. Prosecution for being not pregnant presents a whole lot of problems.
 
I don't see why this is a problem. Especially when you consider it will be the parents who have to bear the brunt of any cost associated with either the abortion or the cost of raising a child should the minor in question decide to keep the baby.
Another thing about this is that putting aside what I pointed out above... that saying "Parents are paying the bill for raising the child so they get veto rights over the abortion" is a non-sequitur since they wouldn't be paying to raise a child that didn't exist... I think that the premise of your point actually makes more sense in the converse.

What I mean is, if we are saying that the parents' interest in their future expenses related to the unborn child give them veto power over anything, it would be over the mother's decision to have the child, rather than the decision to abort, since her having the child is what creates the financial exposure for them. Do you think parents should be able to tell their daughter she must get an abortion? Including state/police, assistance in enforcing their mandate on the girl? Cause that's what they get for their abortion "veto"... police power of government denying the girl an abortion based on their will.

Also... if we're saying that just overall, "It's the choice of the ones paying the bill" and we assume that the parents are paying whether its for the abortion or the child-raising... wouldn't that mean the parents should have the right to force an abortion of a child they did not want to pay to raise?
 
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Well, prosecuting people who are drunk is fairly straightforward, so long as they do things that are accepted as things you can't do when you are drunk, like driving. Prosecution for being not pregnant presents a whole lot of problems.
Well I think ol'Bartman can handle any problems... he's a big boy, and he got he big boy pants now.
the legitimacy of the Court
hahahahahahahahaha:lol:

Oh wait :sad: :shake:

Seriously, though... I think that the Court has moved past the point of being seen as just another political branch. The Republicans just figured it out (or decided to make it so, depending on your perspective) way before the Democrats did... as usual.
I find this case to be overblown to be honest. I think this perception comes from his upholding of the ACA. But remember he neutered that law by removing the ability of the Federal government to require the states set up enhanced Medicare and Medicaid exchanges (at Federal expense). That single action completely undermined the law and has made the system borderline unworkable.
Remember that just before the ACA decision, Time magazine ran this cover:



I think that Robert's decision on the ACA was as much about his ego, and pissing on everyone's focus on Kennedy as the only Justice who mattered. With that one decision, Roberts stole the spotlight from Kennedy and has positioned himself as the all-powerful "swing vote". It was mostly just posturing for attention/power, and saying "Hey! I'm the CHIEF, not that guy!.
 
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No because an accidental miscarriage and an abortion procedure are not the same thing. In any case, I imagine the actual language of the law would be longer than that one sentence and include some more details, conditions, caveats, exceptions, etc.

As Cheetah noted

From Guardian


Teodora del Carmen Vásquez was nine months pregnant when she felt a piercing pain in her abdomen. She called emergency services, but started bleeding and lost consciousness before help arrived.

As she came round, police officers surrounded her and accused her of murdering her baby by inducing an abortion. Vásquez, who was 24 at the time, was handcuffed and detained. She was hastily sentenced to 30 years in prison for aggravated murder.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/30/el-salvador-anti-abortion-law-amnesty-international
 
That is ghastly.
No one should get 30 years in prison for a miscarriage.

Per their laws it wasn't a miscarriage, it was an induced abortion. That's part of what comes of making abortion illegal. One of many ghastly parts that the 'right to life' crowd wants to pretend are not parts of their package.
 
But they accused her (and likely convicted her) of "inducing an abortion"... that is different from actually convicting her of "miscarriage". They don't believe that she actually had a miscarriage, they think she induced an abortion and is lying about it, claiming she had a miscarriage. At least that is their justification as I understand it.
 
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To these kind of people; There's no such thing as a miscarriage. The concept of "miscarriage" is merely another form of abortion!
 
To these kind of people; There's no such thing as a miscarriage. The concept of "miscarriage" is merely another form of abortion!

If you are talking about the rabid right to life types, maybe. If you are talking about the more ordinary people who probably were involved in applying judgement to that case probably not. Unless someone can show that some significant fraction of miscarriages are ending up as criminal cases I'd have to think there was something exceptional about that case that is being glossed over in the interests of putting the situation in the worst possible light.

The extremists on both sides are always looking for the most extraordinary cases they can find, then trying to present them as a new and horrific norm.
 
What flies depends on what the Supremes say flies. The old rules can't be counted on to hold.
Ah, yes, like the infamous clause in Uganda's draconian and barbaric "Anti-Homosexuality Act," the harshest such law on the books in any non pre-dominantly Islamic country in the world, with the Ugandan government took such pride in (and lost a lot foreign aid over). The clause I'm talking about is - if a Ugandan citizen travels to another nation and has an intimate homosexual encounter with a citizen of that nation (or of a third nation in that nation), they can still be punished as though had the sexual encounter on Ugandan soil upon returning. Also, rats - excuse me, dutiful citizens who report degenerate behaviour - are eligible for a reward, and can be fined if it's believed they had been deliberately withholding information for about a week. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of modern social conservative Republican lawmakers took such tactics from an African tinpot despot's playbook...
 
But they accused her (and likely convicted her) of "inducing an abortion"... that is different from actually convicting her of "miscarriage". They don't believe that she actually had a miscarriage, they think she induced an abortion and is lying about it, claiming she had a miscarriage. At least that is their justification as I understanding.
How would one go about actually proving that a miscarriage was natural and not an abortion? Tie the woman's hands and feet, throw her in the river and see if she floats??

Women with family, wealth, connections and status will be found to have had tragic miscarriages, women without will be found to have induced abortion through whatever life choices the court find objectionable.

Ah, yes, like the infamous clause in Uganda's draconian and barbaric "Anti-Homosexuality Act," the harshest such law on the books in any non pre-dominantly Islamic country in the world, with the Ugandan government took such pride in (and lost a lot foreign aid over). The clause I'm talking about is - if a Ugandan citizen travels to another nation and has an intimate homosexual encounter with a citizen of that nation (or of a third nation in that nation), they can still be punished as though had the sexual encounter on Ugandan soil upon returning. Also, rats - excuse me, dutiful citizens who report degenerate behaviour - are eligible for a reward, and can be fined if it's believed they had been deliberately withholding information for about a week. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of modern social conservative Republican lawmakers took such tactics from an African tinpot despot's playbook...
I see that this has been brought up a number of times so far, so let me give you all another data point:

It is illegal for Norwegians to buy sex. Period. Not just illegal in Norway, but illegal for Norwegians.

People can and have been fined for buying sex in perfectly legal brothels in foreign countries.

There is absolutely no reason why similar laws can not be made for having an abortion in other countries or states.
 
But they accused her (and likely convicted her) of "inducing an abortion"... that is different from actually convicting her of "miscarriage". They don't believe that she actually had a miscarriage, they think she induced an abortion and is lying about it, claiming she had a miscarriage. At least that is their justification as I understanding.

You are correct they accused her of inducing an abortion.
She could not prove that she did not.

I am sure that in the US there would be "expert" witnesses who would be willing to give evidence to show that the abortion was induced.
Poor people will not be able to afford medical investigation, not that they would reveal anything in many cases, so it will be the woman's word against the "expert"

From Wiki

Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is roughly 10% to 20%, while rates among all fertilized zygotes are around 30% to 50%.[1][6][45][96] A 2012 review found the risk of miscarriage between 5 and 20 weeks from 11% to 22%.[122] Up to the 13th week of pregnancy, the risk of miscarriage each week was around 2%, dropping to 1% in week 14 and reducing slowly between 14 and 20 weeks.[122]

The precise rate is not known because a large number of miscarriages occur before pregnancies become established and before the woman is aware they are pregnant.[122] Additionally, those with bleeding in early pregnancy may seek medical care more often than those not experiencing bleeding.[122] Although some studies attempt to account for this by recruiting women who are planning pregnancies and testing for very early pregnancy, they still are not representative of the wider population.[122]

The prevalence of miscarriage increases with the age of both parents.[122][123][124][125] In a Danish register-based study where the prevalence of miscarriage was 11%, the prevalence rose from 9% at 22 years of age to 84% by 48 years of age.[123][needs update] Another, later study in 2013 found that when either parent was over the age of 40, the rate of known miscarriages doubled.[45]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#cite_note-Will2013-45

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage
 
I wouldn't be surprised if a number of modern social conservative Republican lawmakers took such tactics from an African tinpot despot's playbook...
That happened exactly.

From the Fake News New York Times:

American' role in Ugandan Anti-Gay Push

The theme of the event, according to Stephen Langa, its Ugandan organizer, was “the gay agenda — that whole hidden and dark agenda” — and the threat homosexuals posed to Bible-based values and the traditional African family.

For three days, according to participants and audio recordings, thousands of Ugandans, including police officers, teachers and national politicians, listened raptly to the Americans, who were presented as experts on homosexuality. The visitors discussed how to make gay people straight, how gay men often sodomized teenage boys and how “the gay movement is an evil institution” whose goal is “to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity.”
During the Bush administration, American officials praised Uganda’s family-values policies and steered millions of dollars into abstinence programs.

Uganda has also become a magnet for American evangelical groups. Some of the best known Christian personalities have recently passed through here, often bringing with them anti-homosexuality messages, including the Rev. Rick Warren, who visited in 2008 and has compared homosexuality to pedophilia. (Mr. Warren recently condemned the anti-homosexuality bill, seeking to correct what he called “lies and errors and false reports” that he played a role in it.)
 
Ah, yes, like the infamous clause in Uganda's draconian and barbaric "Anti-Homosexuality Act," the harshest such law on the books in any non pre-dominantly Islamic country in the world, with the Ugandan government took such pride in (and lost a lot foreign aid over). The clause I'm talking about is - if a Ugandan citizen travels to another nation and has an intimate homosexual encounter with a citizen of that nation (or of a third nation in that nation), they can still be punished as though had the sexual encounter on Ugandan soil upon returning. Also, rats - excuse me, dutiful citizens who report degenerate behaviour - are eligible for a reward, and can be fined if it's believed they had been deliberately withholding information for about a week. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of modern social conservative Republican lawmakers took such tactics from an African tinpot despot's playbook...

Maybe. The evil and stupidity of modern social conservative Republicans should never be underestimated.

However, the amount of restructuring of law in general that would be required in order to produce a framework in which this could work is huge. Republicans have demonstrated that they think writing some vague nonsense on a napkin with a crayon is "legislation," so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't realize how much framework would be required and just passed a poorly crafted bit of idiocy, but the people tasked with making it work would have no choice but to shrug it off.

Part of crafting a law is assigning authority. In this case, who is going to be the investigating authority? Let's say that hyper reactionary nitwits in Kansas manage to pass such a law. Kansas has no law enforcement agency that can conduct independent investigations in Colorado. Any law enforcement official in Kansas who testified to something that happened in Colorado, or presented evidence that was gathered in Colorado, would in fact be confessing, under oath, to having violated Colorado law. In order to enlist the assistance of Colorado officials which would be required to make such an investigation legal they would have to be investigating something that violates Colorado law, not some 'crime' declared by a nutty bit of nonsense shoved through the Kansas legislature.

Which brings us around to the Ugandan rat reward system. We already have rat reward systems, so that's nothing new. But rat reward systems in the US involve evidence gathering, not just wild accusations. People cry about getting ratted out, for very valid reasons because they are usually entrapped using the rat, but at the end of the day it isn't the accusation by a rat that is the centerpiece at their trial. It's a recording of what they themselves said to a wired rat. Or documents they made themselves which the rat led law enforcement to under cover of a warrant that they probably never should have had. Our hypothetical citizen of Kansas probably would have to be a bit cautious. Who you tell you are pregnant might need some consideration, and under that kind of law telling random people who might be wired "yeah I went to Colorado for an abortion" would be obviously dangerous. But getting convictions would involve a lot more than handing out candy to people accusing their neighbors.
 
That happened exactly.

From the Fake News New York Times:

American' role in Ugandan Anti-Gay Push
I'm aware of this. I was moreso speaking of Republican lawmakers bringing the idea back home. And please, for the love of all that's good, stop using the term "fake news." It's a stupid, thoughtless, non-constructive, braindead, sheepish tactic that many Americans - including the sitting U.S. President - and a growing number of non-Americans like to use as a blanket "shied" or "discreditor" to something a media outlet says that they don't and feel they don't have the burden any proof to debunk it or say why it's inaccurate at all - that just saying the mantra "fake news" is enough. Well it's not - unless looking and sounding like an obnoxious idiot who shouldn't be taken seriously in a meaningful discussion is your goal.
 
I'm aware of this. I was moreso speaking of Republican lawmakers bringing the idea back home. And please, for the love of all that's good, stop using the term "fake news." It's a stupid, thoughtless, non-constructive, braindead, sheepish tactic that many Americans - including the sitting U.S. President - and a growing number of non-Americans like to use as a blanket "shied" or "discreditor" to something a media outlet says that they don't and feel they don't have the burden any proof to debunk it or say why it's inaccurate at all - that just saying the mantra "fake news" is enough. Well it's not - unless looking and sounding like an obnoxious idiot who shouldn't be taken seriously in a meaningful discussion is your goal.

That was sarcasm. Easily recognizable sarcasm I might add.
 
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