Hatty - Monarch Cookbook Mark II (IC concurrent)

[lymond]

Hi guys, this looks great, but first a newbie question here: when I try to load the game with BUFFY mod it says "this save requires the following mod to be loaded: none" and prompts me to restart civ4. I see that everyone else has it running, what am I doing wrong??

hmmm....not sure exactly what the problem is but it sounds like it might be a bad BUFFY install. Try reinstalling BUFFY. Also, if you were using BUG in custom assets, make sure that you revert to a vanilla version of custom assets - that is, no mods. BUG will conflict with BUFFY if BUG is in custom assets. (Also, the BULL DLL will conflict as well if you are using BULL too, so revert to the vanilla DLL)

I actually keep different version of custom assets for the different mods I play. Ruff_Hi created a little VB app to switch CA folders easily.

 

[kossin]

The game was made with no mods at all so you can't run BUFFY without going through Worldbuilder and making a scenario (which resets barbarian techs).

Try lymond's suggestion of BUG+BULL, it serves 95% the same as BUFFY but without HoF mod.

 

[lymond]

The game was made with no mods at all so you can't run BUFFY without going through Worldbuilder and making a scenario (which resets barbarian techs).

Try lymond's suggestion of BUG+BULL, it serves 95% the same as BUFFY but without HoF mod.

Oh wow....I completely messed up there didn't I? Rough weekend....

Yep, use BUG/BULL in custom assets for this game. BUFFY will not work. I had GOTMs on the brain with my last post.

 

[lymond]

The voting has begun!!! The voting will last for 2 days and will close at approximately Midnight EST on Tuesday. Please post a request for additional time needed to vote, but I would like to close by early Wednesday at the latest to get the next round going. (The voting round could end sooner if everyone gets their votes in earlier)

Standard cookbook doctrine: Its not always about voting for the best save but the save that will be most interesting or challenging to play. Anyone that submitted a save is free to vote.

Please rank your top 3 in order.

First place 3 points.
Second place 2 points
Third place. 1 point.

PLEASE NOTE!! To keep voting fair you cant vote for your own save. You are expected to vote for 3 saves and give reasons for your voting. Remember this is a learning game. I would encourage everyone to act within the spirit that the cookbook is intended.

The saves:

Vranasm

Invalice

Cenan

Welsh Insomniac

Stevoh

Siran

Fezzik

Trynthlas

Walkabout

Shadow players can feel free to comment on saves and indicated their preferences, but their votes will not count.

 

[MathNerd]

Are players allowed to join after the first round? I wandered upon this a few hours late...

 

[lymond]

Are players allowed to join after the first round? I wandered upon this a few hours late...

Yes, players may participate in any round regardless of not having played any previous round. I was actually going to post this info when announcing the next round.

 

[Siran]

Ok, I did some evaluation on the games when I put together the stats. (Who would have thought? )
Keep in mind: I win at prince and am at 50:50 at monarch, so my interpretation could be really wrong.

vranasm

Spoiler :

Nice amount of cities and workers but you only have warriors. I think you already missed the right time for a WC rush. Shaka's unique unit is a spearman and he has copper.
Research is pretty good, but 60% for break even is a sign for me that you should have build more cities. With Shaka still alive you kind of boxed in in the north.

Invalice

Spoiler :

2 cities are too few at that point. You're power rating is poor so you're a great target for Shaka. Threat is already elevated. You're not far from alphabet but you don't have that much to trade and not enough cities to benefit from building research. And your cities have other stuff to build.
I was puzzled over your research order. Pottery before mining, ah and bw? Why? You didn't build any cottages. Just for the granaries? It's better to get the techs first for which you have resources in your BFC. By not researching AH earlier you also lost the chance to use your unique unit as soon as possible.

Cenan

Spoiler :

Nice amout of cities, but I'd say not enough workers. You build one or two of the cities in the jungle. These won't be productive until you get IW (and a lot of workers. ) And they cost a lot of money but give you land to backfill later.
The economy is in trouble, but might be recoverable with some specialist.

Welsh Insomniac

Spoiler :

You kind of killed your capital with too much whipping. Takes your strongest city out of the equation. Probably one cause for your financial troubles. Shaka is still alive and I'm not sure if you can take him with the 3 WCs you got there.
You have writing but no library and you have not made any step towards alphabet or oracle to climb back out of the economic hole.

Stevoh

Spoiler :

Good amount of cities and workers. A lot of the cities have whipping anger, your economy is really bad and writing, which would help you recover, is far away. Archery and hunting are two technologies which you don't really need. You got WCs to kill the barbs and no hunting resource. It looks to me as if you're not using you're workers in the best way. I saw to workers chopping wood in Memphis, ignoring the unimproved pigs on the hill beside it. And you are building a scout in Memphis, which you don't need and which will cost more money.

Fezzik

Spoiler :

Nice amout of workers, two of the three cities are pretty small. Shaka is dead and buried. I'm not so sure about your tech choices. You have priesthood but I don't think you were builidng the oracle to make use of that. CoL isn't the best choice to improve your economy. With 3 cities your maintenance in the cities isn't that big, so -50% won't be that much and courthouses are expensive if you're not organized (?).

Trynthlas

Spoiler :

You killed both Shaka and Mansa which gives you a lot of land to backfill/ barbarian cities to conquer. A lot of workers to improve the land. You are researching priesthood -> Try for oracle? Economy is not that good but you do have writing so there is a way out.

Walkabout

Spoiler :

Shaka is gone and you have a lot of land to backfill/some barbarians to kill. I'd say you need more workers to improve your cities. You don't have priesthood or alphabet but libraries in Thebes and Ulundi and break even is at 50% so your economy is not in bad shape.

So let's get to the voting. Hm... Now I remember why I always let the others vote.

Trynthlas
Walkabout
Cenan

 

[i_imperator]

Siran,

Spoiler :

Thanks for telling me about those workers that were chopping ill cancel that order asap. And the scout was for exploring as i didn't do much of that in my game, but i guess i will just use a warrior or a WC.

Good luck everyone, i will post my votes today after i look through the saves again, and when i'm finished work. I got my college course by the way (Yeah, i know, way off topic, but i had to say something!)

 

[Siran]

Siran,

Spoiler :

Thanks for telling me about those workers that were chopping ill cancel that order asap. And the scout was for exploring as i didn't do much of that in my game, but i guess i will just use a warrior or a WC.

Good luck everyone, i will post my votes today after i look through the saves again, and when i'm finished work. I got my college course by the way (Yeah, i know, way off topic, but i had to say something!)

Congrats to you four your college course.

I'd say WCs are better for exploring anyway. If I remember right, we play without huts, so you won't get any better result out of them. And if we played with them, the other civs on the continent will have gotten to them anyway...
WCs are a lot better against barbs.

 

[Cenan]

Trynthlas

Spoiler :

Nice having killed both Shaka and Mansa, 3 barb cities should net some more
gold or even spare you a settler or two.
Nice amount of workers.
IMO the strongest save entered (well, except for learner_gamer )

Siran

Spoiler :

Not enough workers
Also a strong save. I like that you managed to get a library up in 2 cities.

Walkabout

Spoiler :

Also 2 libraries, nice.
I'm not sure where you're going with teching Math over alpha?
Good amount of scouting done.
That jewish missionary near memphis

 

[Fezzik]

Siran

Spoiler :

I just think this is a well-rounded save. There are 4, almost 5 cities. The cities are big and well-placed, uM... is size 5, Ulundi size 4. It looks to be a fun save to play on.

Trynthlas

Spoiler :

Best warmongering. Killed off both Shaka and Mansa Musa and kept just the capitals. 3 cities, 6 workers, and 9 WCs is impressive.

Walkabout

Spoiler :

Cities you have are well-placed. Ulundi size 4. Memphis will make a nice city once jungle is cleared. Barb-cities should be fun to take. Iron working and math should make quick work of that jungle. Number of libraries is nice.

 

[learner gamer]

I understand my votes don’t count, so my main thoughts are as follows:

(i) I think killing Shaka was the optimal opening here IMHO – although it may well be possible to win without doing so, taking that nutcase out now may well save having to build many more units later just to defend yourself, or some potentially tricky diplo.
(ii) I notice one or two players building some very early granaries – I understand they’re important infrastructure but don’t forget, you have a very low early happy cap on this map. The resulting tendency for whip weariness to stack very rapidly in a city with a granary can sometimes therefore result in (i) unhappy citizens and / or (ii) working very few tiles in a city to stay under the happy cap, if you do even a moderate amount of whipping. Indeed, we’ve seen the second of these two points in one or two saves. In such cases, it can sometimes therefore be better to delay building the granary in a city until the happy cap is higher or you have hereditary rule (particularly in food rich cities) - in favour of building military units, workers or settlers instead to settle more land, work resources earlier and defend yourself....or take out an AI.
(iii) One or two saves have also settled the jungle. Whilst this is sometimes a good thing (eg. if it places a great block on an AI and / or gives you a pre-calendar happy resource such as gems), I’d have been more inclined to let an AI or barbs settle it here and let them clear the jungle for you, whilst you tech / trade for calendar and build an army to take it from them. IMHO, there are other city sites which you can settle on this map to provide you with more immediate benefits to your civ.

Other more specific points have been covered really well by Siran.

My virtual votes would therefore go to:

3: Trynthlas – Shaka and Mansa are gone (although Mansa’s departure can work both ways, since he can be a great trading ally). Timbuktu is a very, very strong city though IMHO. HE already unlocked. Barb cities present some great opportunities.
2: Fezzik – Shaka gone and uMgun will be a very nice production centre. Room also exists for cities to nab (and most importantly feed) happy resources. HE already unlocked. Can already commence The Oracle if wanted.
1: Siran – Shaka gone, Memphis and uMgun will be good production cities. All cities connected for trade routes and worker micro looks very good. Teching alphabet will help keep the economy afloat. No 10XP unit (as far as I can see) for the HE.

Oh, and an honourable mention goes to stevoh for getting into your college course.

BTW, lymond, any chance of adding walkabout’s save to your earlier list?

@MathNerd: you’re more than welcome to join in and play however many rounds that time permits you to play. Just remember that for your votes to count, you need to submit a save by the deadline for that round. Look forward to seeing a future save!

 

[Trynthlas]

@ vranasm:
Peaceful start is interesting, but IMO if you're going to go for one, you really MUST do some serious REX-ing to not get blocked in by Shaka. You settled Heliopolis in a good spot but failed to push any other cities out that direction so now you are almost boxed in, and without an army (which I see you were somewhat belatedly building 2 WCs).

@ Invalice:
Only 2 cities, and a 3rd on the way but your settler is heading away from Shaka instead of going towards him to grab that copper? Tech choices are also somewhat odd, I thought about doing Pottery early, but if I had I would have spammed cottages on the FPs around Thebes.

@Cenan:
Pretty different spot for the capitol! I suppose the 2 hammer tile in the city plot was useful in your rush, but I kind of question moving away from the seafood. Overall this looks really strong even though your economy is in the tank (which mine will be shortly as soon as we start building more cities!). As Siran pointed out, more workers!

@Welsh_Insomniac:
Ouch at the in the capitol. Chopping is good too, eh? Number one rule, don't panic!

@stevoh:
Not sure I would have kept uMgun in that location, but it's not horrible. I also don't like where you settled Memphis (1N is much better IMO). Siran's comments on tech and workers are spot-on.

@Siran:
What, no self-analysis? You got lucky with where Shaka decided to build uMgun, also great placement on Memphis. Other than needing some more workers, definitely a strong start!

@Fezzik:
Abort! Abort! It's a trap! Don't go after Charlie even though that capitol looks undefended! Otherwise good job on knocking out Shaka and setting up your techs.

@Trynthlas:
Some self-analysis here Good warmongering, which was kind of the goal I had so yay! Not sure burning Djenne was the right choice since I'll likely have to re-build another city there or near it shortly. 9WCs is good, but other than smashing some barbarian cities there isn't much to do with them now, so probably over-built and could have been further along in tech without having done so.

@Walkabout:
Nice start! Got rid of Shaka and dropped Memphis in a perfect spot to backfill with plenty of time to do so. I somewhat question what you're going to do with that army at this point...(same as my situation). Early Math+IW instead of Alpha or Priest->Oracle is an interesting choice, but fitting since you settled in the jungle. Calendar should follow soon obviously. Need some more workers, but that is easily fixed.

==============

My votes...(a shame I can't vote for learner_gamer )
Walkabout - I find his start strong and also the most different from the others for the tech path. Army allows for continued warmongering if desired.
Siran - Great balanced start with expansion already underway. I, too, question the choice of Alphabet just yet, but it's not a horrible one
vranasm - Definitely not the strongest start, but I think it would be interesting to play from an initial peaceful expansion and see what we can make of it!

 

[Siran]

@Siran:
What, no self-analysis? You got lucky with where Shaka decided to build uMgun, also great placement on Memphis. Other than needing some more workers, definitely a strong start!

I thought, I'd let other people point out my mistakes. That's one of the things I like about these cookbook games, you really get feedback.

Not enough workers would be one point, but I can probably change that pretty fast. I'm actually pretty happy with the way the game turned out. But I loose on Monarch if I'm not careful, so being happy with my position tends to change pretty fast...

And I was really asking myself why I didn't build more WCs and kicked more ass. Probably because I didn't see the other civs until later.

 

[Siran]

Other more specific points have been covered really well by Siran.

I sure wish I could play as good as analyze.

 

[MathNerd]

I don't think I can vote, but if I can:

: Siran, I think the lack of workers would make for an interesting challenge.

: Trynthlas, warmonger start

: Walkabout, the strongest by far

 

[vranasm]

@trynthlas
this is the most east expansion you could get with peaceful approach, since shaka places his 2nd city in about 50 turns or so north of his cap (he had his settler+archer on the way at the time I discovered him, I explored west first).

That layout allows 2 more peaceful cities, one north with silver (that is very important for this save because i didnt get gold from shaka like everyone else) and down there is potential gp farm.
I have in cap prechopped 3 trees that allows some quick rushing wonder (oracle?). Marble is in 8 turns, I think i took the poly path so after aesth+lit there is always the GL open.

The only problem is Shaka DoW's since he is in war mode, but MM is his worst enemy and he demanded breaking trades with Asoka (which I accepted).
I know the save wont win, but want to say some things that could make it look better .

 

[vranasm]

My votes.

As expected everything was about the best rush and as such I think I should choose save which allows best continuation. I had to decide between 3 saves so that meant I only had to choose order. edit: that reads a bit too arrogant! I just meant that I see those 3 saves on almost the same level and the other to be a bit behind, but some of them are close (or very close) to the first 3 though.

Trynthlas best save in my eyes. Shaka+MM done, enough WC, barracks otw. Problematic seems trade root to Timbuktu for more WCs. if this wins, best candidate for rush continuation.

Siran best "peaceful" save since there is enough libraries, not enough workers though and the settler would have to wait a bit, but will be useful for the silver spot north. Allows best recovery. I question the ammount of beakers invested in alphabet and we probably wont get Oracle here :-( other save allows it, but the power is here I think.

Fezzik 2nd best "peaceful" save. It did outclassed because of less number of cities and that mG city is only 1 pop. I would question the barracks in Ulundi too btw. best techs though.

 

[learner gamer]

I sure wish I could play as good as analyze.

Whaddya mean...your save is fine. Seriously, it’s eminently winnable.

That BTW brings me to one point it’s always worth remembering when looking at saves: sometimes, it can really be just the RNG that determines the relative strengths amongst saves...whether because for example, the RNG helps in combat, dictates that a rush target builds a wonder instead of units, or dictates that a scout moves one way instead of another, which affects when you meet them.

In the interests of feedback, I’d say that you’re working your special tiles and have your cities connected...so that suggests you’re OKish on workers IMHO (although maybe one more would be handy.) If anything, I’d question the builds in uMgun...do you really need a library in what’s your weakest commerce city when, for example, you could build a library in your capital and get more commerce thanks to the palace and workboats – and run some science specialists there? In light of that, if I was going to build infra in uMgun, it would’ve been a barracks and then WCs – and a library in Thebes.

Talking of WCs, I’d recommend everyone who’s interested in using them take a look at Sisiutil’s play through here, in which there’s a great discussion of their merits:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173090

Admittedly the game is at prince level and uses vanilla (not BTS), but it was certainly my inspiration for just pumping out a barracks and then WCs from Thebes (and then Ulundi) to kill off the AI when AH revealed horses.

Coming to Trynthlas’ point here (and thanks for the compliment BTW):

(a shame I can't vote for learner_gamer )

I actually did think later about retracting my decision, but that would’ve been very unfair. Moreover, with that much land available to settle and so many AI already fallen, the game’s largely already won. Indeed, I later quit my shadow out of boredom. As a result, I’ve no doubt that playing from whichever save wins this round will prove much more fun.

 

[Trynthlas]

@trynthlas
this is the most east expansion you could get with peaceful approach, since shaka places his 2nd city in about 50 turns or so north of his cap (he had his settler+archer on the way at the time I discovered him, I explored west first).

That layout allows 2 more peaceful cities, one north with silver (that is very important for this save because i didnt get gold from shaka like everyone else) and down there is potential gp farm.
I have in cap prechopped 3 trees that allows some quick rushing wonder (oracle?). Marble is in 8 turns, I think i took the poly path so after aesth+lit there is always the GL open.

The only problem is Shaka DoW's since he is in war mode, but MM is his worst enemy and he demanded breaking trades with Asoka (which I accepted).
I know the save wont win, but want to say some things that could make it look better .

True, if he settles that way you are somewhat stuck. In my game he settled to the south, likely due to the pressure from me stealing workers and posting WCs at his north border. However, my main point was expanding faster (chop those settlers out!) and you could (for example) have grabbed the spot where that barbarian city is now before it spawned. For peaceful expansion I would have aimed to have at least all 6 of the spots you have picked out (which are good spots!) already up and running, including that silver you mention.