MathNerd
High on math (a, not e)
Whatever Welsh votes for, we will still use Trynthlas's save, so is that what we've chosen?
Hatty - Monarch Cookbook Mark II (IC concurrent)
- Thread starter lymond
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Not sure if Welsh is going to get in a vote, but this round appears to be decided. Trynthlas has the lead by 3 votes. I will post Round 2 start thread by first thing tomorrow. Please do not start Round 2 yet. Feel free to continue Round 1 discussion.
Results:
My take on each save FWIW:
My pick for best save and general comments: (there might be better saves on paper but I liked this best for the MC this round)
Results:
Spoiler :
My take on each save FWIW:
Spoiler :
My pick for best save and general comments: (there might be better saves on paper but I liked this best for the MC this round)
Spoiler :
vranasm
Deity
@lymond
Ah how you had guessed my surname from my nickname? I am impressed
. (Actually Vraný is my real surname and vranasm is former nickname of my brother...nice guess)
to your comment... I think it comes down to the forests only prechopped and not chopped. I think with direct chopping I could have at least 2 more workers + 1 settler already out and probably settled that silver spot, getting at 5 cities. I am lately more working on my beginning style (as evident from the start in the kossin's new topic) so there is good chance that if i would make the same peaceful opening now it would be probably a bit better.
I dont like size of 2 of my cities (fish+marble, and pigs+rice+copper). There will be culture battle in the east for those pigs+hills probably and I really missed improvement on that site with working rice before wheat/pigs.
Problem with my opening (except for the shaka problem ;-)) is that I didnt get that gold from Shaka. Whatever people will do they will have from now on advantage of having 2 free happy against 1 my happy (I suppose people will stop warmongering and turn to settling cities and I think the silver spot is primary spot).
What I like that I will have early marble, but it is questionable if I should build Oracle before improving marble or after (marble is 8 turns) and I think since I got poly there is open ToA/Parth.
Big question is what to take from Oracle.
Fishing for my opening wasnt that bad since I needed those fishes at marble spot else the site would be deadweight.
Ok that all is theoretical, since we will not continue with my save, but I think after I finish 2nd round with Trynthlas save, I would probably try my hands on my save...just to see the difference.
Ah how you had guessed my surname from my nickname? I am impressed
. (Actually Vraný is my real surname and vranasm is former nickname of my brother...nice guess)to your comment... I think it comes down to the forests only prechopped and not chopped. I think with direct chopping I could have at least 2 more workers + 1 settler already out and probably settled that silver spot, getting at 5 cities. I am lately more working on my beginning style (as evident from the start in the kossin's new topic) so there is good chance that if i would make the same peaceful opening now it would be probably a bit better.
I dont like size of 2 of my cities (fish+marble, and pigs+rice+copper). There will be culture battle in the east for those pigs+hills probably and I really missed improvement on that site with working rice before wheat/pigs.
Problem with my opening (except for the shaka problem ;-)) is that I didnt get that gold from Shaka. Whatever people will do they will have from now on advantage of having 2 free happy against 1 my happy (I suppose people will stop warmongering and turn to settling cities and I think the silver spot is primary spot).
What I like that I will have early marble, but it is questionable if I should build Oracle before improving marble or after (marble is 8 turns) and I think since I got poly there is open ToA/Parth.
Big question is what to take from Oracle.
Fishing for my opening wasnt that bad since I needed those fishes at marble spot else the site would be deadweight.
Ok that all is theoretical, since we will not continue with my save, but I think after I finish 2nd round with Trynthlas save, I would probably try my hands on my save...just to see the difference.
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Ah how you had guessed my surname from my nickname? I am impressed
I magic...
(ha...no actually I recall glancing at some thread recently in which someone - maybe Czech - pointed it out. By the way, I've been to the Czech Republic)Playing your saves after the cookbook is highly recommended. In fact, you can play any saves at any point after it is complete to try new strategies - including others.
I can't recall your save entirely at the moment, but I'd say more emphasis on food is needed - at least to happy cap- and libraries/specialists. With copper, you will need to build some Shaka counters, which WCs will not be. Shaka will likely be somewhat nerfed with yours, Mansas, and Charles' expansion. Can't recall diplo either, but you could take him out later with cats or use him. You have enough land to be viable and do some damage. Oracle looks like CoL if Conf or Monarchy. Conf would get you some cheap temples too.
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Round Two Commences
Congratulations to Trynthlas for winning the vote in the first round! 
A lot of good discussion by participating and shadow players in the first round. Let's keep it going. The name of the game is having fun and learning (wait...aren't they mutually exclusive?!)
Below you will find the save that will be used for Round 2:
MC Hatty Round 2 Save
Round 2 lasts from 1500 BC - 400 AD (100 turns - I think) and will tentatively end at Midnight EST on Sunday, August 29th, with voting to occur the subsequent couple of days.
(Note: Alt-M allows you to set reminders for X number of turns)
This round is also open to players that have not previously submitted games and have not played/shadowed past the date of 1500BC. Players that feel their overall game is too strong for the MC may submit shadow games, and this is actually welcome as it can prove educational for less experienced players.
Questions we might ask for the next round given the current situation:
1) What was your strategy to recover the economy while backfilling land?
2) Is it time for peaceful expansion or do we continue the carnage?
A lot of good discussion by participating and shadow players in the first round. Let's keep it going. The name of the game is having fun and learning (wait...aren't they mutually exclusive?!)
Below you will find the save that will be used for Round 2:
MC Hatty Round 2 Save
Round 2 lasts from 1500 BC - 400 AD (100 turns - I think) and will tentatively end at Midnight EST on Sunday, August 29th, with voting to occur the subsequent couple of days.
(Note: Alt-M allows you to set reminders for X number of turns)
This round is also open to players that have not previously submitted games and have not played/shadowed past the date of 1500BC. Players that feel their overall game is too strong for the MC may submit shadow games, and this is actually welcome as it can prove educational for less experienced players.
Questions we might ask for the next round given the current situation:
1) What was your strategy to recover the economy while backfilling land?
2) Is it time for peaceful expansion or do we continue the carnage?
vranasm
Deity
that is a lot of time...
I was deciding between warmonger and peaceful... I think I will go peaceful afterall.
After I recheck the save more I can provide more insight. But I think settling silver, marble, djenne (I dont think it was wrong to raze it though from what I can remember, will adjust position a bit probably) blocking off charle, probably look closer to blocking JC.
Cottages, cottages, cottages. will think about GL. since i think oracle is out?
I hope this is ok and doesnt spoil anything
target is for 400 AD have at least 150 beakers and solid tech lead, in the middle of lib race (definitely want to have CS at least, at least 1 academy, maybe philo bulb?)
I was deciding between warmonger and peaceful... I think I will go peaceful afterall.
After I recheck the save more I can provide more insight. But I think settling silver, marble, djenne (I dont think it was wrong to raze it though from what I can remember, will adjust position a bit probably) blocking off charle, probably look closer to blocking JC.
Cottages, cottages, cottages. will think about GL. since i think oracle is out?
I hope this is ok and doesnt spoil anything
target is for 400 AD have at least 150 beakers and solid tech lead, in the middle of lib race (definitely want to have CS at least, at least 1 academy, maybe philo bulb?)
Siran
Warlord
Hm, I don't think you spoil anything without playing the turn. Telling us your thoughts about the things you want to do, is not spoiling.
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Yep - Pre-round discussion is more the welcome. Of course, not everyone need play the same way, but discussion of strategy is fun and educational. Especially considering the challenge the winning save provides.
vranasm
Deity
tough to say... to what converts T113 in dates? I saw Oracle between 1250BC and 950BC on Monarch usually, really depends on other AIs... but since there is JC, Asoka, Stalin, Charle (did i forgot someone?) I think it's fair to say Oracle wont be prioritized probably by the AIs
Interresting that you would use Ulundi... my inclination was to Thebes, with Ulundi massing settler/s+worker/s for southern expansion
Interresting that you would use Ulundi... my inclination was to Thebes, with Ulundi massing settler/s+worker/s for southern expansion
I think each turn is 25 years yeah?
So, 3 turns for priesthood to finish, 14 turns for oracle. 17 * 25 = 425
Oracle would finish in 1075. That is without chopping of course.
Well, I'd use Ulundi because it's the hammer city of the empire. Thebes has
a library up already. I'd much rather run scientists there and produce workers/settlers
than build Oracle.
Once Timbuktu grows, it could contribute to worker/settler production too.
Edit: with regards to chopping out the Oracle. There are 3 workers around Ulundi.
If they each pick a forest, you could chop out +90 hammers in 5 turns.
So, 3 turns for priesthood to finish, 14 turns for oracle. 17 * 25 = 425
Oracle would finish in 1075. That is without chopping of course.
Well, I'd use Ulundi because it's the hammer city of the empire. Thebes has
a library up already. I'd much rather run scientists there and produce workers/settlers
than build Oracle.
Once Timbuktu grows, it could contribute to worker/settler production too.
Edit: with regards to chopping out the Oracle. There are 3 workers around Ulundi.
If they each pick a forest, you could chop out +90 hammers in 5 turns.
vranasm
Deity
it's worth the thought though... since I think we will have to really quickly block off charle...that former djenne spot is too lucrative to abandon for charle... I am affraid every turn will have it's weight.
I even think about scouting the room with WC and if I see Charle's settler coming...he wont arrive...
with Timbuktu I agree...but the happy cap will be nice after silver city, with size 7...and timbuktu is size 2...it will take some time...
I even think about scouting the room with WC and if I see Charle's settler coming...he wont arrive...
with Timbuktu I agree...but the happy cap will be nice after silver city, with size 7...and timbuktu is size 2...it will take some time...
This next round is where I usually struggle in games and feel like I get behind. Tech path is less clear (usually...here I think we definitely want to try for Oracle->CoL for courthouses to support expansion; and we need IW, Math, and should probably grab Calendar to make use of the jungle resources).
Given that we haven't interrupted Charlie or JC in their development yet, and it's pretty certain that they both have metals, I'm not confident in a further rush. I think I'm definitely going to pursue the back-off-and-recover path in the next set, and see how I can manage. Chariots will be busy cleaning up barbarian cities.
Given that we haven't interrupted Charlie or JC in their development yet, and it's pretty certain that they both have metals, I'm not confident in a further rush. I think I'm definitely going to pursue the back-off-and-recover path in the next set, and see how I can manage. Chariots will be busy cleaning up barbarian cities.
i_imperator
Imperator
I'm thinking about trying henge after the libary in ulundi, i'll probally lose it but the failure gold would be nice. COL seams more important to me than oracle. If you get courthouse, libary, and granery's up that should help out for the tech/beakers/expansion. I might go for the oracle though and bulb for monarchy or MC. I don't think we should be warring in this round, blocking off charlie and exploring and expansion should suffice. Some scientists should be run in thebs also.
Another thing, should the barb cities be kept or razed? most of them seem to be in a good location's the one that has the WC next to it will be a great secondary commerce/wall street city, plenty of calender resources.
Another thing, should the barb cities be kept or razed? most of them seem to be in a good location's the one that has the WC next to it will be a great secondary commerce/wall street city, plenty of calender resources.
I honestly don't see what good Stonehenge is going to do you.
Unless you wanna run priests instead of scientists. Hatty is creative, so you don't
need the extra +1
Besides, the failure gold from Stonehenge will be minimal, since it's the cheapest
Wonder in the game, if you actually fail to get it.
Based on the recent discussion, I'm thinking something like:
Go for Oracle, using Ulundi.
After Priesthood finishes, tech path Math->Currency(Oracle)->CoL->Alpha
I think currency over CoL is smarter. It's the more expensive of the two techs,
and the benefits are immediate. +1
, markets and gold trading.
Chop/whip/bribe/beg some settlers out of Thebes and Timbuktu, to block of JC and
Charly.
Then send out the fogbusting WCs to explore and maybe create som more lucrative via exploration. Probably meet the last civs, although they should be
no surprise to anyone who they are.
Unless you wanna run priests instead of scientists. Hatty is creative, so you don't
need the extra +1
Besides, the failure gold from Stonehenge will be minimal, since it's the cheapest
Wonder in the game, if you actually fail to get it.
Based on the recent discussion, I'm thinking something like:
Go for Oracle, using Ulundi.
After Priesthood finishes, tech path Math->Currency(Oracle)->CoL->Alpha
I think currency over CoL is smarter. It's the more expensive of the two techs,
and the benefits are immediate. +1
, markets and gold trading.Chop/whip/bribe/beg some settlers out of Thebes and Timbuktu, to block of JC and
Charly.
Then send out the fogbusting WCs to explore and maybe create som more lucrative
via exploration. Probably meet the last civs, although they should beno surprise to anyone who they are.
Siran
Warlord
Currency over CoL.It's not only the extra trade route and the gold trading, you can build gold. That allows you to push your research slider up and your get multiplicators for all of your libraries.
i_imperator
Imperator
What about monarchy, should we be teching that early or trade for it? I've decided against henge because of the reasons Cenan mentioned. Use oracle for MC while teching monarchy and then go Math>Currency>COL> trade for alpha> Astehics>Literature (For The Great Library and HE)> Civil Service. Great Library should (if build) be in thebs, looks like a good GP farm, with the National Epic and Oxford later on.
vranasm
Deity
well techs you write are a bit mixed and missed...
first finishing priesthood is good, building oracle is very good. What to take from Oracle is a bit question, but as lymond said we are creative and that are cheap libs and temples. So choosing CoL is good.
what to tech after priesthood? I think I will next tech sailing. Why you maybe will ask? Since I want peaceful expansion i want open borders and trades from neighbors! And sailing is less worker intensive then roading to them. That bring us to scouting. For that to work 1 of our war chariots has to find as many cities from AIs as he can.
Next tech will be Aesthetics. I hope trynthlas went for priesthood through poly (still have to check ingame), so we have open Literature .
We should trade Aesth for Alpha (invest in alpha 1-2 turns and hope some AI will tech it in the meantime...I guess Asoka could, he is usually good techer) and then backfill, especially IW, math would be great.
After math we need Calendar that is our big priority.
That bring us to value of Monarchy on this map. We already have 2 happy sources (gold + silver - i expect everyone will settle that soonish), that means size 8 cap, size 7 every other city and that is not bad. I see there incense, dye, spices (from memory) another 3 happy, sugar another one. At least 1 other happy from temple (Confu, probably religion from Charle)
So I think we will not need Monarchy in this map. We can try to backfill from Alpha for Monarchy but it's not priority and wouldnt mind not getting it asap.
I want to get at least Great Library because of marble we have. Parthenon is questionable (sometimes i get it sometimes not, but I would better invest hammers to workers settlers first and then eventually can some go to Parthenon for failure gold if it's really late), with ToA I wouldnt calculate.
I will have to check ingame, but if JC doesnt have religion, I would send missionary from Confu to him and switch to it, if not, I will hope for spread from Charle and adopt his religion, he strongly values religion so if want to please him, it's important to take his religion. But more important is to watch JC.
first finishing priesthood is good, building oracle is very good. What to take from Oracle is a bit question, but as lymond said we are creative and that are cheap libs and temples. So choosing CoL is good.
what to tech after priesthood? I think I will next tech sailing. Why you maybe will ask? Since I want peaceful expansion i want open borders and trades from neighbors! And sailing is less worker intensive then roading to them. That bring us to scouting. For that to work 1 of our war chariots has to find as many cities from AIs as he can.
Next tech will be Aesthetics. I hope trynthlas went for priesthood through poly (still have to check ingame), so we have open Literature .
We should trade Aesth for Alpha (invest in alpha 1-2 turns and hope some AI will tech it in the meantime...I guess Asoka could, he is usually good techer) and then backfill, especially IW, math would be great.
After math we need Calendar that is our big priority.
That bring us to value of Monarchy on this map. We already have 2 happy sources (gold + silver - i expect everyone will settle that soonish), that means size 8 cap, size 7 every other city and that is not bad. I see there incense, dye, spices (from memory) another 3 happy, sugar another one. At least 1 other happy from temple (Confu, probably religion from Charle)
So I think we will not need Monarchy in this map. We can try to backfill from Alpha for Monarchy but it's not priority and wouldnt mind not getting it asap.
I want to get at least Great Library because of marble we have. Parthenon is questionable (sometimes i get it sometimes not, but I would better invest hammers to workers settlers first and then eventually can some go to Parthenon for failure gold if it's really late), with ToA I wouldnt calculate.
I will have to check ingame, but if JC doesnt have religion, I would send missionary from Confu to him and switch to it, if not, I will hope for spread from Charle and adopt his religion, he strongly values religion so if want to please him, it's important to take his religion. But more important is to watch JC.
I don't think I've tech'ed Monarchy in any of my recent games. There is just always
some AI dumb enough to spend the
for you.
Provided you don't crush Charly too soon, he's going to tech it for you, since Vassalage is his favorite civic (Monarchy->Feudalism)
I thought about taking MC from Oracle too, but I'm not sure the extra +1 from
gold, and once silver city is settled +1 there too, is worth it.
It requires you build forges in cities that should be working cottaged FPs
Then again, it would net 2 extra pop in forge cities, that could potentionally work
even more cottages.
Going Math->Currency->CoL->Calendar might be a good choice.
Trade for Alpha and IW.
I count 5 calendar resources that are within the area we could expect to settle soonish. Some of those aren't even jungled, so could be hooked up before IW is
traded or teched.
Just saw vranasm's reply. I hadn't thought about Sailing, good point. It should be
quick to tech anyways somewhere inbetween the others
some AI dumb enough to spend the
for you.Provided you don't crush Charly too soon, he's going to tech it for you, since Vassalage is his favorite civic (Monarchy->Feudalism)
I thought about taking MC from Oracle too, but I'm not sure the extra +1
fromgold, and once silver city is settled +1
there too, is worth it.It requires you build forges in cities that should be working cottaged FPs
Then again, it would net 2 extra pop in forge cities, that could potentionally work
even more cottages.
Going Math->Currency->CoL->Calendar might be a good choice.
Trade for Alpha and IW.
I count 5 calendar resources that are within the area we could expect to settle soonish. Some of those aren't even jungled, so could be hooked up before IW is
traded or teched.
Just saw vranasm's reply. I hadn't thought about Sailing, good point. It should be
quick to tech anyways somewhere inbetween the others
vranasm
Deity
I don't think I've tech'ed Monarchy in any of my recent games. There is just always
some AI dumb enough to spend the
Provided you don't crush Charly too soon, he's going to tech it for you, since Vassalage is his favorite civic (Monarchy->Feudalism)
I thought about taking MC from Oracle too, but I'm not sure the extra +1
gold, and once silver city is settled +1
It requires you build forges in cities that should be working cottaged FPs
Then again, it would net 2 extra pop in forge cities, that could potentionally work
even more cottages.
Going Math->Currency->CoL->Calendar might be a good choice.
Trade for Alpha and IW.
I count 5 calendar resources that are within the area we could expect to settle soonish. Some of those aren't even jungled, so could be hooked up before IW is
traded or teched.
Just saw vranasm's reply. I hadn't thought about Sailing, good point. It should be
quick to tech anyways somewhere inbetween the others
there were maps where i took monarchy from Oracle ;-) but this one will not be the case...there seems to be plenty of happy around...just to find the right order of everything
