Hatty - Monarch Cookbook Mark II (IC concurrent)

@learner_gamer

I checked your save just to see what could be possible from it... I think your save is the closest possible thing to owning the continent in BCs as suggested in the immortal version by kossin. I think you should have tried it...
Trynthlas has more WCs though...but that could probably come from you rushing prot leader. In retrospect I think maybe rushing Romans and charle after would be better course of action for quick owning of continent...
 
Coming to Trynthlas’ point here (and thanks for the compliment BTW):

I actually did think later about retracting my decision, but that would’ve been very unfair. Moreover, with that much land available to settle and so many AI already fallen, the game’s largely already won. Indeed, I later quit my shadow out of boredom. :blush: As a result, I’ve no doubt that playing from whichever save wins this round will prove much more fun. :)

Well-deserved compliment for such an awesome rush! I'd really like to see some more details from your game, such as how many WCs for each attack, and how the crap did you build enough to take out Shaka in 2450?
 
True, if he settles that way you are somewhat stuck. In my game he settled to the south, likely due to the pressure from me stealing workers and posting WCs at his north border. ;) However, my main point was expanding faster (chop those settlers out!) and you could (for example) have grabbed the spot where that barbarian city is now before it spawned. For peaceful expansion I would have aimed to have at least all 6 of the spots you have picked out (which are good spots!) already up and running, including that silver you mention.

well that barb city is pretty poor for getting now... i calculated with the food for heliopolis...

I tried to play it precisely and not expand too fast focusing more on improving land and workers so i was a bit slow with settlers... I think it's not only about the number of cities...but their quality too.
Except for the silver spot I think i got right spots in reasonable time.
But I am not perfect... there is probably good chance that 2nd run through would be better...
but the cap could have chopped those trees instead of prechopped :-) but hey! I am sparing them for oracle :-D
 
Nice amout of workers, two of the three cities are pretty small. Shaka is dead and buried. I'm not so sure about your tech choices. You have priesthood but I don't think you were builidng the oracle to make use of that. CoL isn't the best choice to improve your economy. With 3 cities your maintenance in the cities isn't that big, so -50% won't be that much and courthouses are expensive if you're not organized (?).
I just had a recent game where CoL netted me Alphabet and several other techs in trade. I also like to have the option to build libraries *or* courthouses as the second build in each city, depending on which is worth more at the time. Getting this in place before spamming settlers seems to work for me, but I'm still learning. Plus Oracle is right on the way, especially helpful if I can't make progress on CoL because of a crashed economy.

@Fezzik:
Abort! Abort! It's a trap! :lol: Don't go after Charlie even though that capitol looks undefended! Otherwise good job on knocking out Shaka and setting up your techs. :goodjob:

I think you're probably right. My WCs would have wasted a trip finding too many garrison units and too much culture to pull off a decisive victory. Those few moves gathering them together put a different spin on how my position looks.

Which brings up a question I have: what's the best way to leave a save just before ending your round? I know that alt-canceling orders is good etiquette but are there other tips for tidying up before ending a round? Like in my case, I probably could have just left the WCs garrisoned a couple of turns before ending, to avoid making a decision that is better left for the next round, right?

EDIT: maybe this isn't the best place to ask :lol:
 
Some great questions raised and points made.

@Trynthlas: My memory’s not perfect (some would say it's worse than that :lol:) but, IIRC, my initial build order was worker > warrior > WB. The worker obviously pastured the pigs first and then the horses before setting off to mine the hill 1S of the city. Shaka’s stolen worker roaded in the pigs and then joined worker 1 mining the hill 2W, 1S of the city. The early tile arrangement was pigs, horses (to finish the warrior and start the WB) and I remember then finishing the WB working the 2H hill temporarily to expedite it’s production. As mentioned in my earlier posts, the key with this start IMHO is that the early happy cap is very low, so hammers are preferable to growth (and then whipping), otherwise you’ll just end up with unhappy citizens.

I then built a barracks working the pigs, clams, horses and mine 1S of the city, joined then by the mine 2W 1S of the city) and started on WCs. With 12 hammers available per turn from this arrangement, I could produce a WC in four turns, 3 if there was overflow. With that in mind, I built two WCs, finishing the second on the very turn the city grew to 6 pop. The third WC then got produced with a two pop whip (zero hammers invested in its build) to get rid of the unhappy citizen and I then produced subsequent WCs by working the clams (for commerce), horses and two mines to maximise production. The pigs were only worked again when whip weariness subsided.

That meant that I had four chariots ready to take on Shaka – indeed, I actually wanted a few more. However, Shaka sealed an earlier than intended DoW when he decided to send one of his archers out to the tile 1NW of his capital (possibly to reinforce the garrison in uMgun) – so I decided to DoW earlier than I wanted, to prevent the archer returning to the city.

That’s where the real story – the early luck I enjoyed with the RNG in combat - began. You see, not only did I manage to kill Shaka’s archer 1NW of Ulundi (at 68% odds according to the log) but also the sole remaining garrison archer in the city. By right’s the attacking WC should’ve died, since the odds were around 34%. Moreover, my luck continued when I rolled the two remaining WCs north into uMgun to find just a single archer garrison...which my first chariot finished off at odds of just 28%.

As a result, there I was with my army completely intact (against all the odds) and capable of building WCs in 3-4 turns with a hammer heavy setup in Thebes. Moreover, other WCs were going to arrive in Ulundi quite rapidly from Thebes since my two workers had (almost) connected the two cities ahead of the Shaka DoW. Having already met scouts from Charlie and Mansa at this point, I therefore decided to keep producing WCs and see if it was possible to take one or both of them out. After healing up, I therefore scouted directly south and SW of Ulundi (down the coast nearest to Thebes, hoping another AI was close by) and stumbled on Charlie and Mansa’s starts.

By the time I had explored the area a little more, I had a another two IIRC chariots in addition to the four Shaka veterans to take on Charlie. The reason I went ahead was because I’d (mistakenly probably) promoted two of the Shaka veterans up the flanking line, so I had two flanking II chariots to use as suicide units against Charlie's protective archers. Sadly, I recall that I lost one or both of them in that war, as my good RNG luck started to abate. However, thanks to a barracks and reinforcements from Ulundi (aided by a chop or two IIRC from my two workers), I managed to have 11 WCs in two stacks ready to take down Mansa. Sadly, more than a few chariots were lost during that conflict as my RNG luck evened itself out. Given the fact that the economy was also starting to struggle at that point, I therefore decided to reign in the WCs and send them off for fogbusting duty and to explore SE of Mansa...only to realise very shortly after that JC was right next door! :lol:

That BTW brings me to your point vranasm. I completely agree that, in retrospect, the best course of action may well have been to take down JC after Shaka, and so avoid the praets. However, this is why I invited anyone looking in on the immortal cookbook to post a youtube style playthrough: (i) to see if it’s possible and (ii) to explain on camera their logic in scouting out down the eastern coast (where you’d eventually find JC SE of Mansa) rather than scout the land S and SW of Ulundi. It may well be that the movements of the starting scouts and warriors means that a civver locates Rome and rushes it before DoWing Charlie and Mansa...but I’d like to see them doing it playing the map as blind as they can, rather than play the map in hindsight.

Indeed, just for kicks, given the discussion I’ve had on the immortal cookbook thread about BC finishes, I did actually try continuing on from my 1500 BC save (note: this was after I’d quit my playthrough in the ADs in sheer boredom), just to see the result. Sad to say however that JC had settled about five or six cities by then IIRC – and had walls around Rome (as you can see from my 1500 BC save) which saw more than a few WCs lost. As a result, whilst I got Rome and one other city to fall, it left the Egyptian empire with a lone WC to continue the fight. Where was the RNG when I needed it? :lol:
 
Well here's my votes

1st place: Siran: For a very well rounded start.
2nd Place: Trynthlas: Mostly for the warmonger abilities that caused shaka and Mansa to go to their graves nice and early. Despite this IMO rushing mansa might have been a mistake, he's usually good for trade bait and you would've gotten a lot of great tech trades if you left him.If you managed to get a great spy you could steal techs off him aswel.
3rd Place: vranasm: For not rushing shaka, i'd find that very interesting,and different, better hope he goes to war with mansa! Good peaceful start, but you need at least one more worker.
 
Wow...lots of good discussion here

@Walkabout - Sorry about missing your save in the voting post. This has been corrected.

As a general note - and I think I alluded to this in the OP - please do not continue playing beyond the cut-off date for a given round if you plan to submit in subsequent rounds. For example, shadowing Round 1 and submitting in Round 2. Of course, this applies to players submitting in every round.
 
As a general note - and I think I alluded to this in the OP - please do not continue playing beyond the cut-off date for a given round if you plan to submit in subsequent rounds. For example, shadowing Round 1 and submitting in Round 2. Of course, this applies to players submitting in every round.

:blush: Sorry, I forgot about that in my enthusiasm lymond...oh well, that's it from me...have fun everyone! :)
 
:blush: Sorry, I forgot about that in my enthusiasm lymond...oh well, that's it from me...have fun everyone! :)

well, learner, you can still shadow and contribute.
 
@learner_gamer

well if I can read kossin's intentions clearly then the intention of map maker was to allow people rush Shaka and motivate him, but stop at it, I think he kind of admits it.

For this theory to be right i have couple arguments
- Shaka near and BFC horse - everyone hates shaka as neighbor and with BFC horses and AH obvious first pick is almost guarantuee everyone will opt for rush.
- choosing prot neighbor and one of best defensive classic units directly south to impress player not thinking about rushing more... if you had directly south JC for example you certainly wont hesitate... prot archer x 4 str archer is thing to consider though.

So I think everyone who was brave enough to rush more then shaka should be clapped on shoulders and you all who managed it should take some special award ;-).

That said... I think rushing MM was right decision since he is not unit builder and is in nice direct path and that land is very lucrative. But rushing JC then instead of Charle seems better for early conquest. better to solve JC before praets. Charle will dont run away.

and I think i will not revoke my votes, but kind of would love that Siran's save wins (and we actually would try eco recovery) since with Trynthlas's save I for sure would try rush JC since in his save he is on 4 cities and probably more :-)

As I said more then 1 time...I love to do things different :-) tough to prove which way is better though (this time I would say rushing Shaka was better, even if my save could eventually pull off)
 
:p At the moment it's 15 for Trynthlas and 14 for me. Yours could be the deciding vote. ;)

That said, I thought Trynthlas' game better than mine.
 
:p At the moment it's 15 for Trynthlas and 14 for me. Yours could be the deciding vote. ;)

That said, I thought Trynthlas' game better than mine.

well I already voted and wont revoke the vote...
But I am really torn since both of you provided great saves... actually I would love to try both :-D the warmonger path and the peaceful path ;-)

I hope someone else will come and vote... i dont see voting every people who provided first save...
 
Vote Update:

Trynthlas in the lead currently with 13 votes. Siran in second with 12. Walkabout is within striking distance, but it really looks like it is down to the first 2. (Siran: Not sure how you came up with your numbers, but I certainly could be off. Doesn't hurt to have back-up :) )

Players who have not voted:

Invalice
Welsh I
Walkabout
 
Thanks for the critisism on my game and the others posted, it really helps!

Quick post with my votes:

1 – Trynthlas: I think it will be very interesting to see everyone try to either continue the rush, or attempt to backfill and recover their economy with Mansa dead.

2 – Sirian: With Shaka dead and a connected empire this would be the save I am most comfortable in playing as I believe it is in a great balanced position. However, as this game is a learning experience my first place vote goes to Trynthlas’s save for the unique situation it puts the Cookbook. Having to focus on backfilling cities and recovering the economy or choosing to continue the rush to JC gives us a lot of interesting options.

3 – Vranasm: A nice peaceful start. It would be interesting to see what directions the Cookbook takes in dealing with Shaka.
 
I'll bow to the inevitable here. For what it's worth, my votes go to Trynthlas, Siran and Fezzik, in that order. Taking down Shaka AND Mansa is strong play that puts Trynthlas apart from everyone else (except for Learner, of course!) Siran has a nicely balanced, solid position, but it's a little closed for my tastes. Still, 2nd overall. I liked the tech lead and the more open position that Fezzik left almost as much.

Looking forward to seeing what everyone does next round.

Oh, and Learner, thanks for the comment about not needing an early granary in Thebes. Very good advice on this map. I'm also curious why no one has commented on the near-universal construction of barracks. Were they really necessary as opposed to, say, a couple more WC's or getting your rush out a few turns earlier?

Thanks all.
 
Learner about the rush -

The key to rushing a bunch of civs is to go worker WC WC WC barracks *WC. The first 3 WCs go out looking for the other AIs. Due to the strength of 5 the AIs will not be able to attack you with archers. Due to the 2 movement 1 WC can keep the AI from sending out a settler and pillage their metals. Finding Rome and choking them is quite possible - I would have done it in my immortal game if I hadn't worker stole from Mansa which meant I didn't scout past him.

Once the chokes are in - you should attack when they get Bronze Working and have copper (you see them convert to slavery) - its just a matter of time after that and the combats odds will only delay you if you have bad luck. I in fact sent 2 WCs to each AI before attacking Shaka just so I could get XP by attacking lone archers outside cities without taking the chance of losing a choke.

As for knowing at the beginning? First off its epic - this means we can fight at long distances. Second we have a chariot UU - so look at your capital. How many hammers do you have? In this case we have 15 hammers with pigs and hill tiles at happy cap. Thats enough for 1 WC per 3 turns on epic. Perfect. So get the WCs out and head straight for writing. Grabbing fishing is a big mistake this game because its a waste of beakers and hammers. While growing work a farmed flood plain for one less commerce - you'll be only running pigs and mines most of the early game anyway pumping out units. Once you get writing turn off research and collect gold to pay for all the new cities you'll pick up.
 
. Grabbing fishing is a big mistake this game because its a waste of beakers and hammers. While growing work a farmed flood plain for one less commerce - you'll be only running pigs and mines most of the early game anyway pumping out units. Once you get writing turn off research and collect gold to pay for all the new cities you'll pick up.

Spoiler :
Great point about Fishing Hopa and one of the main reasons I moved away from the coast in my immortal game. I generally abhor non-Fishing coastal starts especially on the higher levels.

Also, writing is very important here and as yall look to move up levels it is key to learn the importance of running scientists asap and generating gold to fund expansion. Actually, the next round may be a good time to start focusing on this.
 
Learner about the rush -

The key to rushing a bunch of civs is to go worker WC WC WC barracks *WC. The first 3 WCs go out looking for the other AIs. Due to the strength of 5 the AIs will not be able to attack you with archers. Due to the 2 movement 1 WC can keep the AI from sending out a settler and pillage their metals.

Agreed...but when Shaka was found so close by so early by my starting warrior, I didn’t think there was any need for 3 WCs to find my first target :lol:....I just needed a barracks and some WCs for the rush IMHO. Then I just used the very same speed of the WC you mentioned to find my next targets after Shaka had been put down. Of course, immortal will doubtlessly prove different.

Finding Rome and choking them is quite possible - I would have done it in my immortal game if I hadn't worker stole from Mansa which meant I didn't scout past him.

The choke is a great point...and probably the key to putting out JC early. That said, you hit the nail on the head IMHO with the very point you made about Mansa: there are many reasons not to scout past him in the early game – including DoWing him, as you and I both did. In retrospect, I could have scouted SE of Mansa before I DoW’d him...I certainly had the time whilst putting my two stacks together. Had I thought like an immortal player, you’re right, I could’ve had JC as well. :mad: Thanks for the pointer. :)

As for knowing at the beginning? First off its epic - this means we can fight at long distances. Second we have a chariot UU - so look at your capital. How many hammers do you have? In this case we have 15 hammers with pigs and hill tiles at happy cap. Thats enough for 1 WC per 3 turns on epic. Perfect. So get the WCs out and head straight for writing. Grabbing fishing is a big mistake this game because its a waste of beakers and hammers. While growing work a farmed flood plain for one less commerce - you'll be only running pigs and mines most of the early game anyway pumping out units. Once you get writing turn off research and collect gold to pay for all the new cities you'll pick up.

As for knowing at the beginning, I completely agree with everything you’ve said – and about going hammer heavy in Thebes...indeed, I specifically mentioned that in my post. The problem is however Grashopa that in spite of these advantages, and more in some games, I’ve seen more than the odd save which has been played with map knowledge and / or used world builder to game changing effect, in order to make the poster look like a genius – that’s what I was getting at. And please, don’t reply by telling me that it hasn’t happened, because I can prove that it has in some cases. (If anyone doubts this, I’ll gladly show you (i) Sis’ vanishing barb city (ii) the case of the two Oracles and (iii) the case of the Greek axes, just for starters.) I’m certain it’s not the norm but, if I’m going to learn how to pull off the feats you guys do on immortal, I’d rather not learn it from someone who’s peeked into world builder beforehand to precisely locate each AI and / or changed a few things to suit, thanks. (Incidntally, BTW, the untainted, common sense, non-abusive nature of your posts on here and the immortal cookbook thread is why they've been a great help, so thanks. :)) Yikes, aren't I getting cynical! :lol:

As far as fishing’s concerned meanwhile...I remember debating that at some length in my early game for the very reason you mentioned. I presume you regard it as a waste because the beaker cost isn’t recouped in time? If so, I’m sure you’re right given how many turns I worked the clams for. Of even bigger concern however was my early decision to research mysticism (and forget that Hatty was creative) as mentioned in my 1500 BC write up. What was I smoking when I thought of that? :lol: In retrospect, I’m actually surprised the save ended up as well as it did. Thanks for the insight. :)
 
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