Help me get better on Emperor!

t150 update

Got communism 3 turns ago and captured mids; switched to rep + caste + SP + free religion. Broke the 1k bpt barrier then. Now capped Spain and onto pay Greece a visit (to get rid of that annoying border pressure and get back like a dozen of my tiles). Missed out on MoM which was a severe blow (more golden age turns helps build SS parts so much faster); might have to take out Zara with infantry later on to reclaim the wonder.

Tech-wise: reached communism, and now I'm aiming for steam power for levees, and so my workers can hurry up and workshop/watermill things. After that it's a tossup between AL and electricity; gonna see if I can get one of my vassals to get astro for me (or at least some things along that path).

Spoiler :

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That was painful to finish off. Lack of infrastructure at end probably cost me. Only 1 turn ahead of Bibor in end. His science at end was 800-1000 more than mine. Although mid game I was ahead 4-5 techs. I think he could of easily beaten his date.

If I had played this as a domination/space game I could of easily smashed this date. Maybe I should of spammed a few more science buildings near end. Didn't really look at this as I just wanted to finish this off. Quite frustrating not being able to trade any useful tech past astronomy. Looks like I also didn't cottage some nice river tiles too which was probably a mistake. The AI are all at war as I bribed them on eachother near end to ensure no suprises.

Overall no warfare here really sets me back. Not settling on marble also cost me early hammers. 2 less hammers a turn is a big cost.

Culture wise I was also being hammered by greeks. Ai has infantry but I think I traded each ai 10-20 techs each for gold. Near end I was giving away a tech or 2 a turn.
 

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@ Undefeatable - 800ad and Spanish lack longbows and you are on replacement parts. Maybe Guilds would of been quicker here. Albeit it would mean a detour for HBR. Have you delayed Ox uni too much here?

If you can leave Spain functional you should be able to use her to tech some techs for you. The real win here will be Zara's cottages. You should smash 250 turns here with a much larger economy. Your science will be 2 or so times mine come late game.

I think the strength of this map is the flood plains mixed with a financial leader. Plus chance to settle marble for quick workers.
 
@ Undefeatable - 800ad and Spanish lack longbows and you are on replacement parts. Maybe Guilds would of been quicker here. Albeit it would mean a detour for HBR. Have you delayed Ox uni too much here?

If you can leave Spain functional you should be able to use her to tech some techs for you. The real win here will be Zara's cottages. You should smash 250 turns here with a much larger economy. Your science will be 2 or so times mine come late game.

I think the strength of this map is the flood plains mixed with a financial leader. Plus chance to settle marble for quick workers.

Here's the thing - without espionage I had no way of knowing what Spain was teching. They could've gotten feudalism at any point, in which case the entire war would've been a bloody slog with 2 units dying for every 1 I killed. Luckily they didn't so my trebs had an easier time. But all the other civs had gotten it a long time ago so I had good reason to suspect Spain would get it too, considering how feudalism is one of the 3 or so techs that all the AIs seem to love to go for as soon as they can.

Zara's cottages are nice but I'm worried about his army. Well...worried would be the wrong word. This is emperor and if each of my cities contributed just one more unit I could easily crush him. But I don't want to overbuild my army either, and at any rate the AIs are teching unusually fast on my playthrough (somehow that always happens...), so castles when they come are going to be a real pain.

I'll think about who to attack next.

And yeah, FPs are the major benefit of this map, I would agree.

Oxford is not as important as communism and SP. Nothing is as important as communism, save for expansion (and that's what I'm doing here). Besides...want the stone first so it won't be so darn expensive.
 
There only appears to be one stone on entire map. Ackkk. Settling might of been useful for health too.

Yeah I could of beelined communism instead of trying to take radio from lib. Probably was not worth the delay. I don't really play many games past cuirs/cavalry. I probably should of got edu much sooner. Ox uni does add circa 165-200 beakers a turn. Albeit requires heavy investment.
 
There only appears to be one stone on entire map. Ackkk. Settling might of been useful for health too.

Yeah I could of beelined communism instead of trying to take radio from lib. Probably was not worth the delay. I don't really play many games past cuirs/cavalry. I probably should of got edu much sooner. Ox uni does add circa 165-200 beakers a turn. Albeit requires heavy investment.

Yeah, really didn't like the scarcity of some resources here. But I guess I can't complain; my cap is nice enough and there is already a huge amount of rivers.

Communism saves you that much gpt while also making workshops/watermills OP; it's better than a beaker boost, it's the single biggest cost cutter in the game. Normally it would also give you a free golden age, but...alas, espionage is off, so no free GSpy.
 
Yeah, really didn't like the scarcity of some resources here.

Pacal is a beast! +2 :health: from Expansive and +3 :) from Ball Court. Add to that Rice, Corn and Wheat all available, plus Gold, Gems & Silver. In some ways, this map is truly HoF material. The only resource I really missed not having was stone, but that would've been overkill I think.
 
t167

Capped Ethiopia and got my precious MoM back. About to start a golden age with Taj and then build factories everywhere. Will use 2x GE to rush Three Gorges Dam. Pericles is my 3rd and final target. Eager to try infantry vs longbows :).
 

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t184

I went AL first, and then Zara was so kind as to tech compass/optics for me. Close to industrialism. Now railroading everything. Greece is capped. Have over 3000bpt, though in a golden age.

With power I'll probably easily haver 4000, maybe 5000bpt near the end.

Still a ways from the dom limit, and I'm keeping it that way. About 10-15% below is perfect if you want MAX PRODUCTION but don't want to accidentally go over because your vassals are too expansion-happy or you plopped a few too many settlers.

Built Oxford in...well, 2 guesses as to where I put it. Build NE in bananacorn city, though it fit more in Barcelona in hindsight. Putting IW in Seville, one of those rare plains cities that are actually quite food-positive, making it a true production powerhouse. Will easily have 200 hammers/turn after power, 300 or 400+ when building SS parts with labs.

1 turn later...met Qin, and he was, as @Bibor predicted, still stuck at archers. There were a dozen techs I could trade him, and that was just what was available given what he's researched. I feel like him contacting my vassal must be what playing deity iso and finding a runaway AI is like. How horrifying, if I was in Qin's position.

I don't know how well I would've done without taking over anyone, but suffice to say it wouldn't have been nearly as fast. Maybe you guys can play this from, say, t50 but try domination space to see how things could've gone? It would've felt like too much of a missed opportunity to not be able to expand beyond, 13, maybe 15 max cities because I intentionally held back like that, and I would've not been able to bear being able to get such good land and yet doing nothing - so apologies for skimping on the challenge.

Spoiler :

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t200

Apollo done! Let's go! Win this in 30 turns!

After industrialism I teched plastics and used my 2 GE to instabuild the TGD, saving myself almost 3000 hammers and a whole lot of health. Now it's 1400AD and I'm 1 turn from superconductors. My golden age is running out but I got a final one up my sleeve, with a GM + GS + GE from fusion. Easily hitting 4.5k bpt with a full 30 cities, almost all with powered factories and workshopped to the max.

Endgame tech plan is something I've been refining for quite a while now. First...superconductors for labs and assigning thrusters to meh cities (they get worked on first and they don't cost that much so it's fine if they take a bit longer). Then fusion for the golden age and engines - but in 3rd and 4th highest production cities. Oh yeah, there's the cockpit, that's super cheap with copper. After that, satellites -> composites and docking bay in 2nd-highest production city, with casings in good but not your top hammer sites. Finally...genetics for stasis chamber in your IW ultrahammer city or #1 production site, and then life support in a darn good place as well (I want to say build it in a place that you've already completed an engine in, should have enough of a gap). This ensures that the longer a city takes to produce a part, the more time it has to do so. I've arrived in as little as 25 turns after Apollo (I think) with this technique.

Spoiler :

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At last...it is finished.

T230 space colony win; won exactly 30 turns after Apollo, as I promised ;). I had to use the overflow trick* to complete the stasis chamber in 3 turns and life support in 2 turns; that was some serious nail-biting micro. Other than that, though, smooth sailing in the endgame.

A very fun map, and an entertaining playthrough! @zoiks - hope you learned something about the space race process from all of us, I know things can be hard to follow. If you have any questions feel free to ask. See you all in the next one :).

*You can almost finish a build and then finish it the next turn to get as much overflow from it as possible, essentially getting 2 turns of production on the next turn of building whatever you want to build next (in my case, starting on the last SS parts). You can also do even more with some OF stacking shenanigans but I'm not sure what is the limit to OF hammers (and whether it's base or modified) for buildings/units in the game.

Spoiler :

Just BARELY making it in time, thank god for SoL (got Zara to tech democracy for me):
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Victory at last (and yes, I did settle that little island...completely worth):
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I'd like to know how many hammers you diverted into conquest, that would be useful info. Can be extracted from the game data I guess "number of units built", but I need my PC for that :)

To be specific, I'm interested in the total beaker gain from conquest (minus unit costs), as I squeezed out pretty much the maximum out of the cities I had.

T230 win presumes T220 launch, yes? So that's 50 turns worth of beakers & hammerbeakers gained from conquest.
 
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So your churning 4.7k beakers at end. Those extra cities pretty much helped you double to treble science. Each of those capitals seems to be generating up to 200 science. You have 2.5x cities more than me and no culture pressure killing some cities.

My micro of end game was nil to non existant. Probably could of saved a few turns. T201 apollo date for me. So it took me 60 turns from apollo to launch my spacecraft. Most of that wait was teching and cities building parts instead of research. Guessing you had more techs at turn 201 too.

This is the value of a large empire late game. Not to mention the huge science boost before T201 from those captured cities. Especially once state property comes online.
 
I'd like to know how many hammers you diverted into conquest, that would be useful info. Can be extracted from the game data I guess "number of units built", but I need my PC for that :).

To be fair he would of not needed a big army. 11 trebs, 8 WE and 5 knights. He didn't lose a single unit. That is how bad the AI were here against a tech giant. WE 8x50=400. Trebs 11x80=880. 1280 hammers used for army. Plus more hammers for 2 knights and a musket or so for Greeks. So investment of 20 units to gain 15-20 cities late games yields nearly +2-3k science from research and cottages a turn!. Most of these units would of been whipped and the cities would of regrown quickly. So you can ignore this 1280 hammer figure. Especially if he chopped from captured cities.

At 1240ad he was churning 1200 more beakers than me at 1200ad. I was in a golden age at that point. So I can imagine his beakers being even higher during a golden age. 5k plus come late game? At this point in Bibor game you had around 1200 at 70%/1500 at at 80% research a turn. So 1200/1500 beakers a turn ahead. He had communism at this point plus an empire of 28 cities. The maths is simple. An empire double the size can and could generate twice as many hammers/beakers. Especially large captured Ai capitals with flood plain cottages.

The whole point of this exercise was to see how you could play peacefully for a space win. If you were not worried about finishing dates then possible. On a normal map with 6 AI chances are you would not have land for 12 cities. Or land as good as this to cottage with a financial leader. On mine and his game it was clear early on the AI were struggling due to human players who knew how to exploit such a strong start.

On a normal immortal game you might end up with land to build 6-7 cities. Emperor maybe higher as AI is slower to expand. Space race with a smaller empire could be possible but you would need Ai to trade techs with to speed it up. Plus 3-4 very strong cities. I think most would struggle with a very slow end game. I am sure there are HOF games with such victories.

This is why players mix conquest with space. It's so much quicker. It also shows why a hammer economy can and is so strong with a a large empire.
 
To be fair he would of not needed a big army. 11 trebs, 8 WE and 5 knights. He didn't lose a single unit. That is how bad the AI were here against a tech giant. WE 8x50=400. Trebs 11x80=880. 1280 hammers used for army. Plus more hammers for 2 knights and a musket or so for Greeks. So investment of 20 units to gain 15-20 cities late games yields nearly +2-3k science from research and cottages a turn!. Most of these units would of been whipped and the cities would of regrown quickly. So you can ignore this 1280 hammer figure. Especially if he chopped from captured cities.

At 1240ad he was churning 1200 more beakers than me at 1200ad. I was in a golden age at that point. So I can imagine his beakers being even higher during a golden age. 5k plus come late game? At this point in Bibor game you had around 1200 at 70%/1500 at at 80% research a turn. So 1200/1500 beakers a turn ahead. He had communism at this point plus an empire of 28 cities. The maths is simple. An empire double the size can and could generate twice as many hammers/beakers. Especially large captured Ai capitals with flood plain cottages.

The whole point of this exercise was to see how you could play peacefully for a space win. If you were not worried about finishing dates then possible. On a normal map with 6 AI chances are you would not have land for 12 cities. Or land as good as this to cottage with a financial leader. On mine and his game it was clear early on the AI were struggling due to human players who knew how to exploit such a strong start.

On a normal immortal game you might end up with land to build 6-7 cities. Emperor maybe higher as AI is slower to expand. Space race with a smaller empire could be possible but you would need Ai to trade techs with to speed it up. Plus 3-4 very strong cities. I think most would struggle with a very slow end game. I am sure there are HOF games with such victories.

This is why players mix conquest with space. It's so much quicker. It also shows why a hammer economy can and is so strong with a a large empire.

I think that your analysis is spot on :). If nothing, comparing our saves shows exactly why more land means a faster space date, all the time, no exceptions. In the case of communism once you have 3 TRs every city pays for itself the moment it's founded, in terms of commerce. And every city can rapidly reach over 50 hammers a turn with a forge + factory (that's auto-powered because TGD). At that point, every city that's even halfway decent will output many, many more times hammers and commerce than it took to build or capture it. In fact building that decently-sized army to capture even one capital + another city would've been worth it. I can't overstate the advantage that having more land in this game brings. And in the case of corps...well you gotta collect corp resources somehow.

Side note: halfway through the game I noticed "new random seed on reload" was checked and decided to abuse it...hence the 0 units lost. But if I hadn't, then I would've lost perhaps 1 treb every 1.5-2 cities (after bombarding CR2 odds against maces were ~70%, longbows were ~75%, against swords 90%+, increasing drastically after every fight with collat). I did this for aesthetic purposes, as I've always wanted to play an optimal space game with 0 units lost for whatever reason...and this seemed like the perfect chance. So I guess...x1.5 or double the cost of trebs to get a more realistic appraisal? But even if I had to build twice, or 3 times as a big an army, the benefit of even moderately more land pays it back in very short order. And I got a lot more land. Besides, my production base was so high that even doubling my army size would've been like breathing slightly harder on an AI to get it to topple.

One more thing - the early game was also important. I think you and I took a similar approach in cottaging everything and chopping/whipping settlers/workers, which is the way to go about a map like this. My policy is that on maps like this, every river tile without a resource must have a cottage, especially if you're fin (unless food is really poor - and it's not here). I probably got slightly ahead even before the conquest because I did the 1-pop settler strat, traded for a few techs that you researched, Oracled metal casting, and whipped more mercilessly; IMO 6-3 settler whips are the most efficient as your growth is halted for the least amount of time, and should be done whenever possible, even if you have to whip away cottages (whipping away mines is almost always OK). Hence, I was able to grab the bananacorn and dye sites before Spain.
 
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I'd like to know how many hammers you diverted into conquest, that would be useful info. Can be extracted from the game data I guess "number of units built", but I need my PC for that :)

To be specific, I'm interested in the total beaker gain from conquest (minus unit costs), as I squeezed out pretty much the maximum out of the cities I had.

T230 win presumes T220 launch, yes? So that's 50 turns worth of beakers & hammerbeakers gained from conquest.

Seems about right by my calculations. After counting some techs in the tech tree and assuming where you are (where were you tech-wise t220 and t230, BTW, and what was your tech path?), I'd reckon I got an extra 100000-150000 (150k) beakers from those extra cities by the time I launched and/or won. If nothing else that speaks to the power of land in space wins.
 
The point here initially was to do it peacefully. We knew a conquest game would knock many many turns off a win here.

I guess the interesting thing is to se the different approaches aqnd just how much a larger empire quickly causes huge growth in beakers.

In terms of techs going for monarchy was a mistake. If you settle the marble eastwards then you could skip early AH. This might require early alphabet to get any tech trades here. Not sure how early on you are talking about tech trades.
 
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