Help on Cities 3-5, please, and next tech

[toob]

Cities 3-5

Spoiler :

Memphis is in an obvious location, I think. Was obvious even before horse popped where it is. I generally prefer more overlap for city 2 but the fish pushed it E.

1. Where can I put city 3? (I lean 1b)

(1a) Forested plains hill WWNW of Thebes, can share corn and/or cow?

(1b) Plains hill 3S of Thebes for instant grass cow? (1W of that can share corn but blocks 2b below)

(1c) Coastal grass hill 4S of Memphis to share corn and get one dye?

2. City 4? (I prefer 2b but it has a huge cost in worker turns)

(2a) one of the other two above sites

(2b) 1W of riverside banana to get gems and a grass ivory?

(2c) 1N of W coastal cow to eventually get stone (of course, further exploration will make that decision more clear, but we can assume it's just more flat plains/grass for now)

3. City 5? (I like 3c but that's pushing into a neighbor's land; see below)

(3a) any of the remaining options above

(3b) on the dye 1N of the lake?

(3c) 1E of the rice to also get the fish?

Everything that looks forested/jungled, starting with the row the grass cow is on and going S, is jungle. Except the forested plains hill 4W of that grass cow.

There is a neighbor whose 2nd city is SSE of where the warrior is on the S banana. (I don't want to say who it is yet, nor add a save, because I have a very funny screenshot of him/her and would like to reveal the identity using that; it's not applicable now except the civ is not Creative and not an aggressive-type.)

 

[toob]

Next Tech

My current techs are Agr (civ), Wheel (civ), Hunt (ivory & cheapened ...), AH (cow, horse), Min (obvious), BW (obvious), Myst (borders; I'm Ramesses not Hatshepsut). Research went in that order, and Myst just finished so 0 beakers into next tech.

Do I need IW next to go into the jungle, and to find iron? The horse will be pastured in 6 turns (Memphis just founded, worker was already there to start the pasture), so I'll use WCs to scout much of the remaining land.

I am thinking IW - a very unusual play for me - because I play K-Mod. In addition to a potential archer rush (not likely here I think), if I only have horse the only barbs I see will be spearmen. Seriously, before even barb archers, I get barb spearmen, and lots of them, if I only have horse.

My other choices are Fish (for that one lone fish), Arch (archers, yuck), Pott (cottages, granary), Wri (libraries, open borders, major prereq tech), Med/Poly+Priest (Oracle). I usually go for Oracle at this time, but if I do that here I'll be stuck with these two cities and 2-3 other crappy, filler cities, at best.

 

[toob]

Spawnbusting

I have a warrior on the grass hill to the W, SW of the mountain.

I have a warrior on the grass hill to the E, 4S of Memphis.

I had a warrior spawnbusting near Memphis that is now moving to the forested plains hill 4W of the grass cow; will be there in 8ish turns.

I figured, since I'm complaining about barbs, I should mention how I'm handling them, at least to start.

 

[Seraiel]

In general:

It's wrong to plan so far in advance, what you should do, is, build the Settler, then choose the city site.

Regarding the sites you've choosen:

First city I'd plant on the Stone, assuming that this is not Deity, and that you still have a chance at the Mids. If this is Deity, you've already made too many faults, like not settling the Stone immediately or i. e. building a road towards the Horses (the river connects them) .

Second: You have to get the Dyes somehow, as they're not only strong tiles once you have Calendar, but Dyes are usually a rare-resource that can be traded extremely well, and gives +2 Happiness (with Theaters) . That city I'd plant 1E of the grassland Cows, maybe 1SE, but 1E is more likely, because of getting land that can be immediately improved instead of stupid Jungle.

Last city I'd plan 1S of the Banana to catch all the Elephants and share the Food if needed.

The city south of the Corn, that you mention, is a filler-city at most, as it takes the capability of your Horses city to run as a GP Farm, as all other cities aren't really viable for that, at least in near future.

S.

 

[toob]

In general:

It's wrong to plan so far in advance, what you should do, is, build the Settler, then choose the city site.

Regarding the sites you've choosen:

First city I'd plant on the Stone, assuming that this is not Deity, and that you still have a chance at the Mids. If this is Deity, you've already made too many faults, like not settling the Stone immediately or i. e. building a road towards the Horses (the river connects them) .

Second: You have to get the Dyes somehow, as they're not only strong tiles once you have Calendar, but Dyes are usually a rare-resource that can be traded extremely well, and gives +2 Happiness (with Theaters) . That city I'd plant 1E of the grassland Cows, maybe 1SE, but 1E is more likely, because of getting land that can be immediately improved instead of stupid Jungle.

Last city I'd plan 1S of the Banana to catch all the Elephants and share the Food if needed.

The city south of the Corn, that you mention, is a filler-city at most, as it takes the capability of your Horses city to run as a GP Farm, as all other cities aren't really viable for that, at least in near future.

S.

Ooh, it's not Deity. Monarch.

The road on the horse was totally unnecessary. Gah.

The road on the ivory was necessary, of course, and I'm pretty sure the road on the forest was as well, because the river isn't totally in my cultural borders (yet).

Uh, on the stone? Isn't that a little far away for a 2nd city?

I used to take martial arts classes as a kid (I sucked then and am worse now, just background). When a black belt would spar with a younger student, it would be a rout. But I'd go to competitions and see them fight each other, they would both be so good it ended up just looking like a street fight.

That's how I feel watching you Deity players in your videos. I pre-plan, like, everything (you should see the notes files I have on my games), you guys just roll on and make magic happen. It seems so sloppy! (Like the black belts fighting each other.)

Back on topic, nabbing the stone site for the Pyramids makes sense. I can't remember the last time I built them (2009? it was right when I first started posting here) so I kind of forget they're there to actually take, and not just for failgold.

Ok, city 3 on stone, city 4 1E of grass cow. I picked exactly neither of those to consider.

BTW, Seraiel, I really dig your Replays. Thanks for doing them.

 

[Strickl3r]

Mids look kind of usefull on this map. Tech Masonary, get out a chariot as soon as the horses are hooked up and settle maybe 2 S of the Warrior in the West(or maybe 4 S), so you can hook up the Stone and build the Mids.

After Masonary maybe tech Fishing.

3S of the Capitol looks viable for another city. 3 S of Memphis would be ok 2, 4 S is kind of wired, the Dye is not worth it settling that way imo.

 

[Seraiel]

There is actually no real need to pump out Chariots asap, as there aren't even any enemies in sight, and even if there are some on the map, they'll take long to get through the jungle.

Settling the Dyes will give him the 4th city, the Elephants site is #5, iirc that's the number needed for the national Wonders, and if already given so much land, one should settle it.

After that, it can be discussed, if settling more cities makes more sense, or if it's better to let the AI settle them and improve the jungle for onesself. From what I can see, I'd maybe settle a 6th city in the East near the Rice.

@ toob:

We seem to have many things in common. I also had martial arts training in my youth. Anyhow, I loved fighting the black-belts, I found it an honor.

About pre-planning and thinking a lot, that's the way, if one wants to really good decisions. I don't wanna talk bad about Abzolute Zero for example, but when i saw him playing, I though 2 things, and that were "wow, does he play fast" and "wow, he makes a lot of mistakes, how is he able to still win on Deity... " .

Later, when I got comfortable with playing various leaders on various settings (but Deity only) , I learned that winning on Deity is something, that still can be achieved with (minor) mistakes. Maybe you're just like me in that direction, and are just a born HoF-player, because we are the ones, that find their joy by playing the best game possible for onesself, Winning becomes secondary, it's about learning how the best decisions can be made, and about really understanding the game.

This is the next thing, you mustn't forget, when saying such things, as "it seems so easy" and "it seems so sloppy" . You never have seen me playing. After I've published my first Video, you might think otherwise, because I'm like you, I think a lot about decisions, I make myself notes all over. When writing the Replays, I wrote down every thought I had, and that were sometimes over 1000 for a single game!

This is, what makes a good player, remembering the good decisions, and getting a routine. Once one knows the ways that work (which takes a lot of time) , once one has understood the game mechanics, once one decides to do maths, one will be rewarded by the joy of having decided really well, and playing for HoF makes it even more fun, as one can remember ones own games a lot easier.

So ty for the compliment on the Replays, those really took a lot of work, but I learned a lot through them myselves, and I think they were the most fun time I ever had in CIV. Maybe though, I'll even find more joy in playing the current SGOTM with the people I got to know through playing for HoF, you might wanna follow the writeup of that game too, you (and me) might learn something more about making good decisions .

GL with your game, don't forget to beat the out of those AIs!

Regards,

Seraiel

P.S.: The stone is not too far away. Too far away would be something like if more than 3 cities would fit between the city your founding and your nearest neighbouring city (rule of the thumb) .

P.P.S.: Playing without Wonders, makes a strong player. If your aim is to make it to Deity as fast as possible, you maybe should continue not building any Wonder at all, as only Incans are really strong enough to build them without greater sacrifices. Mids and Oracle are somehow an exception though, they are often worth their cost, but they're also really hard to get, often even impossible to get (i. e. Oracle 2500 BC or Mids 2000 BC) .

 

[Strickl3r]

Why would you wanne settle the dyes as 4th city? Doesn't make any sense.
Chariot is for barb defense but i'm not used to monarch. If chariot is not needed then so be it.

 

[Seraiel]

Because it's the last spot he can settle before needing IW / Calendar, and because the city can work very well at size 2 (as a Worker-pump i. e. ) , meaning that I wouldn't settle it asap, but after pushing towards Mids, definately.

Chariots for Barb-Defense make sense (I usually play without Barbs) . I thought you ment pump out Chariots and go to war.

 

[enKage]

3rd
1NE from grass cows

4th
What about 2W of Thebes' corn? Stone in BFC, shared corn, 4 cottage tiles and after currency building wealth all the time at size 6 (+8 gold and cottage commerce).

I cannot see better spot before IWorking

 

[Seraiel]

Impossible to take the Corn from Thebes, as it's mostly a plains city.

Also: Settling the stone directly saves enormous numbers of worker-turns, which is really important if playing on higher lvls.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Memphis is in an obvious location, I think.

To my eyes, it is very slightly unfortunate. I would normally prefer the placement one tile south of its current position. I'd rather use the corn and the hill to get the horse, than use the horse to get the corn and the hill.

After the borders pop and the fish are harvested, I like passing the Memphis corn off to another city.

I agree with Seraiel that Thebes needs to keep its corn.

 

[slaze]

3rd city shoulda gone next to banana 1N of the mountain. 4th something with gems

 

[blunderwonder]

sometimes its smart to settle aggressively if there is someone close by, but i dont see any neighboors, clearly you should still settle south of the capital before you start looking east and west of it. the fish/rice spot is too far though, you will kill your economy for a city that will take a long time to be profitable, its just too far away.

In any event, you should plan for an earlyish calender, as lots of your resources are calender, i see 3-4 dyes, and 2-3 bananas, and they comprimise alot of what little food is on the map. Additionaly, it is monarch so its not gonna be bad, but it reminds me of an izzy map i played, where there was little to no commerce

you have a smallish rivers, and no early commerce resources closeby, with pretty crappy resources, and the cities that directly surround it have no viable riverside cottage sites because theyre all brown. This means you wont get a good cottage/beauro capital, and research will be hard to come by.

your next city should probably be 1N, or 1NE of the gems, a good resource to grab, and a good aggressive site for snagging some room that will pay for itself, after that probably 5-6S of the capital, because theres good food resources, and plenty of trees to chop out your next settlers/workers quick, you will need lots of workers with all that space and calender resources, probably 2 for each city.

while its on monarch you can almost certainly get mids, i wouldnt advise it only because the failgold is probably as good, since you have crappy food tiles for awhile. You have plenty of room to settle though, and you should probably look at chopping out NE as soon as possible. It seems on this map a great deal of your research is going to have to be bulbed

 

[toob]

Ok, back from a power outage.

I have lots of things to say, but the first is the most important. It explains why I chose - as I said, quite against character - to tech IW next (before Wri, before Pott!). It also explains why settling is so important (a non-minimal number of cities is key here).

Here it is:

Spoiler :

Montezuma is in the game. And he's a neighbor. Facepalm!

(This is the funny picture I was talking about. He's not actually the AI from the original screenshot; more below.)

I regret not putting this on the original list: Strickl3r's suggestion of 4S of that W warrior:

Spoiler :

That circled gems wasn't visible before.

I also did Fish/Mas (in that order, not what Strickl3r recommended), but after IW.

Good thing I did, and that I took the Seraiel-unconventional(-to-me)-advice of settling on the stone:

Spoiler :

Only iron within 10 (perpendicular) tiles of Thebes.

Who was that neighbor to the SE? Mansa Musa. He, the un-rushable one even with WarChariot even if there wasn't jungle there, settled on that E-most jungle ivory, blocking our glorious 1S-of-riverside-banana city (oh what a Bur capital!).

But wait!

Spoiler :

Orange=MM city, Red=... We all agree dry rice=sux, but it's auto-irrigated at CS if I settle "here."

So city #4. I finish #5 by settling 1SE of grass cow (if MM takes away my capital, I will take the border demerit and get all the dye in my BFC, gorramit!).

It's t120 (Epic=1000BC). Here's my land:

Spoiler :

All city names are 1N of the city. "x Turns" = x turns to 1st border pop. I just got a new (awesome) monitor so haven't figured out perfect aspect ratios; sorry.

Any recommended satellite cities for Bur cottages?

So let's consider our (my ) original options:
1a) (WWNW Thebes) maybe as a satellite city, nowhere soon
1b) (3S Thebes) very a possible city, just chose different
1c) (4S Memphis) Strickl3r and, belatedly, I agree that was
2a) ibid
2b) (1W riverside banana) would have avoided MM ivory settle, but blocked by on stone
2c) (1N of W cow) bettered by Srickl3r 4S-of-warrior bc 2nd gems, blocked by stone
3a) ibid
3b) (on dye 1N of lake) bettered by 1SE grass cow, too food-poor for a good city
3c) (1E rice near SE fish) still available, technically

Saves (t0, t60, t120) attached as a zip. Remember, K-Mod (v1.40, though the version shouldn't matter for viewing the saves).

@Seraiel, philosophical musings follow ...

 

[Fippy]

What are your plans with this game?
On Monarch, you can do what you like improving / learning.
Would you like testing Pyramids beakers under Rep.?
War Chariots? Just normal expansion?

It's hard answering where cities should go, without knowing your goals.
These black belt players you mention, they don't make dot maps usually. Or plan 10 cities ahead. They make a bigger plan first, then settle cities where/when they fit that plan.
Okay, looks like i was too slow

 

[blunderwonder]

I think those black belt players just get super lucky , and they often play through situations i would outright give up on. Ive watched some AZ videos where he magically pulls out of a situation that would have had me throwing my monitor out the window.

In any event, i dont know much about K-Mod, but it wasnt in the OP, so forget everything i said i guess. From what little ive read about it, it changes the game alot, so snagging lots of early land may be less important than getting some defense up, especailly vs someone like monty who already builds massive stacks.

You probabyl ought to aim for some early techs to bribe monty on someone else, then backstab him with whatever you have available. He typically techs alot slower than most if he doenst crush his prey, so he'll be an easy target if you can keep him off you for awhile. Mansa wont attack you, and he'll trade with you even at annoyed I think, so hes far less of a concern.

 

[toob]

[Any chance you would believe I hit "reply" just after this and it took me 2 hours to post? Honest!]

@VoiceOfUnreason: I tried to calculate this (1st border pop by settling 1S wins t83-t96, but I get Stonehenge+pop by t96). I couldn't figure out how to discount the value of free monument/Obelisk(s) enough to say food-before-hammers > hammers-before-food in this case. In general, no doubt that's right though, and I seriously underuse that technique (this isn't the 1st time you've suggested it to me, either).

@slaze: How on earth did you know MM would settle just right there and make me regret not settling it as #3?

@blunderwonder:

sometimes its smart to settle aggressively if there is someone close by, but i dont see any neighboors, clearly you should still settle south of the capital before you start looking east and west of it.

So so right about settle S before E/W. I'm really sorry I withheld the neighbor-AI situation. That's the problem with having a glorious (facepalm!) screenshot, I saved it for too late. My bad. Can I call "power outage?"

I like your aggressive settling idea (1N-ish of the gems, 5-6S Thebes right near that riverside banana). I think that's a serious thing I'm missing (and it's part of my dialogue with Seraiel re: settling stone). Reminds me of the Snaaty archery-capital-pump-settle-outwards-then-backfill thread. (With many spare hyphens.)

I would like to play t61-120 exactly the same, but faster. Stonehenge <t93. Heliopolis <t94. Elephantine <t110, Alexandria, ok t116 is fine there. Pott <t102, Wri <<<t117.

I only want those 5 cities, in those places; I only want those techs, in that order (just deeper into 0% Aesth while libraries are being built). However, I do also want 3 more workers and 3-5 more axes/WCs.

Anybody have any micro tips here? Saves are attached (above).

 

[toob]

@Seraiel, re philosophical musings:

Spoiler :

I try to think in terms of Shu-Ha-Ri.

(Other than that Wikipedia article, everything I know about Japanese culture I learned from FFVII-FFXII. In other words, nothing: I'm not trying to disrespect anyone's culture, just quoting something from Wikipedia that I kinda like.)

At my job, I passed "Ri" long ago (or so I claim ).

At CivIV, I'm trying extra hard to be "Shu." As in, I'm purposely holding myself back, even. (Not really, as this thread shows: roads to riverside horse? never thought of settle-on-stone? not share-the-E-corn?)

The "black belts fighting" anecdote was meant to convey exactly what you described about Absolute Zero. I watch his videos, and he seems so sloppy to me! But yet, he gets it right. He clearly plays at the level of "Ri" (in my bastardization), where I play at "Shu."

So I take notes and screenshots. Like, KB of notes per game (in plain text!). And dozens of screenshots. In fact, my images in this thread were influenced by you: I've seen few other images enhanced by that beautiful red circle. (I'm using mspaint; what's the best vector-based image program - with layers - that's free?)

And I make plans. "Plans are useless. The act of planning is essential." (Somebody famous and wise said that. Anybody know who? And was I close to the actual quote?) You shmancy Deity players, with your many hours of effort getting yourself to "Ri" (that's a compliment, in the 10,000 effortful-hours sense), can do without. I, well, I cannot.

Finally (finally!), I don't disagree, that you plan your way through. You're right, I haven't seen you play (yet! get cracking on that video!). I'm just jealous, how fast it seems you (and ScorpionK, that *** ) have reached "Ri."

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, here is one important thing for you:

Stop settling!

1. You have plans (get the Mids) . To be successful with those, you have to focus. You should have begun on building the Mids, once after the Stone had been connected with your capital. Re-organize your workers, chop all Forrests, work as many Hammers as possible, go "all in" .

2. If you get the Mids, you have 5 cities, that can all produce War Chariots with Police-State. War Chariots are (almost) like Horse-Archers, but for the half Price, and 4 cities with Police-State, are like 5 cities, so 5 are actually already like 6.25 cities. If you pump War Chariots from those cities, you can easily get a Force of 15 War Chariots in 2-3 turns. This will be enough to conquer most of Monte's cities even without reinforcements (which doesn't mean that you shouldn't build them) , so:

Build 1-2 War Chariots to scout him. Open Borders, see if he really has no strategic Resources yet (seems he settled 1 tile far from Iron and Horses) , if so, he won't attack you, because he cannot build any offensive units. Focus on the Mids, and watch that he doesn't get any strategics. Once he settles a city near them and begins to improve them, capture the worker, and go pillaging through his land, he cannot do anything against your War Chariots if he only has Archers, he will not even attack you because the chances to win will be so low, that even Monte's courage won't be enough!

If he has Metals, try to get Mansa in a war with him (I think that that is Mansa on the Screenshots) . Mansa can be easily bribed against anybody he's not friendly with (requires you to be pleased to him iirc) , and Monte can also be easily bribed against Mansa, without you even risking to not be able to trade anymore with Mansa! Use the time this gives you, to build the Mids, then build the Force of War Chariots, and then conquer Monte!

3. You have Ivory! War Elephants + Catapults are unstoppable at any difficulty lvl (if built in sufficient numbers) . Tech Math asap, as it unlocks not only Calendar but also Construction. Conquer whomever you want with a Force of 10 War Elephants and 5 Catapults.

Those are your next goals, really focus on them, don't make any additional plans, stop with the expansion, just improve the cities as you already do, let them grow a little, (build the Mids asap, switch to Police State) , and use the tactical advantages you have atm.! You can get into a winning position within the next 1000y from here!