Hinin's Imazighen (Dihya al-Kahina) for VP

Hinin · Apr 30, 2022

The Imazighen
Download here
(requires Vox Populi 2.1 or later)

Leader - Dihya al-Kahina

UA - Moon and Sun
Cannot construct Farms or :c5food:

Food Buildings. Cities have access to :trade:

Food Internal Trade Routes, convert 15% of their :c5gold:

Gold output into :c5food:

Food and

Trade Routes grant :c5food:

Food,

Culture and :c5goldenage:

Golden Age points when moving, scaling with Era. Melee Land Units and Trade Units gain the Divination and Under the Stars promotions respectively.

Spoiler Unique promotions :

Spoiler UA values :

UU1 - Aysas (replaces Pikeman)

Unlocked at Currency (instead of Steel)
135 :c5production:

Production cost / 200 Faith cost (-100)
Can always be bought with Faith if a Religion is present in the City

17 :c5strength:

CS
2 MP / 2 Vision

Formation I
Slither - Ignores Terrain Cost ; deals 5 damages to adjacent Hostile Units whenever moving.

UGPTI - Imajal

Constructed by expending Great People
Cannot be constructed adjacent to each other
Improves any Resource under it
Cannot be pillaged or removed

2 :c5gold:

Gold
1

/

/

/

/

+1

/

if on a Road or Railroad used for a City Connection

Tech bonuses :
- +1 :c5science:

/

at Writing
- +1 :c5production:

/

at Chivalry
- +1 :c5culture:

/

at Astronomy
- +1 :c5gold:

/

at Astronomy
- +1 :c5production:

at Corporations
- +1 :c5science:

at Refrigeration
- +1 :c5culture:

at Satellites

Deals 5 damages to hostiles units finishing their turn next to it.

Spoiler 4UC Compatibility :

Spoiler Promotion Icons (by gwennog) :

Research bases :
- Britannica
- World History Encyclopedia : sources checked beforehand

Artistic Credits (all rights reserved for the original authors) :
- Christos Giannopoulos : original painting for the Aysas
- A. Aberjano : original painting for the Tnoy
- Gedemon, Nutty & Dolen2 : Original 3d models from Ethnic Diversity (Arabian Pikeman and Babylonian Horseman)
- DJSHenninger : 3d model and UI icon for the Imajal (Tuva mod)
- ??? : Leaderscreen (wasn't able to find the original author, so don't hesitate to tell me if you know)
- Idir : Ssendu (Peace Theme)
- Ensemble Weddey : Cheval à Galaten (War Theme)

Credits :
- gwennog : CivIcon, UnitIcons, BuildingIcon, Promotion Icons, DoM loading screen, help with finding music Themes, help with Map
- Hinin : Design, Coding, CivIcon, UnitIcons, BuildingIcon, LeaderIcon Map, Research, Writing (parts only), dds modifications for UUs

Special Thanks :
- Asterix Rage : dimension guide for icons
- VP and 4UC teams and gwennog : SQL inspiration and moral support

Rosete · Apr 30, 2022

Wow! This looks insanely good! I love how this civ forces you into a completely different playstyle, can't wait to try it out after I finish up my current game.

Some questions:

Does the knoy cost one pop like a settler would?

Trade units are only caravans right? Are there any other?

Hinin · Apr 30, 2022

Rosete said:
Does the knoy cost one pop like a settler would?

The Tnoy form unlocked at Trade indeed costs you a Citizen to be produced. That said, early in the game the cost between citizen isn't that high, and you unlock it at a point when you gain more gold, so more food thanks to the UA.

The other solution is to produce it normally by using the form unlocked at Military Theory, which requires Horses.

Rosete said:
Trade units are only caravans right? Are there any other?

The Cargo Ship also supports your Naval Units.

gwennog · May 1, 2022

I play a game to try, it's hard, a bit like Scotland or the Ainu. It takes a lot of thought.
I put all the GP in the form of Imajal except for a few Generals for the borders and the GDiplomats. Not sure that the calculation is good in the long term :mischief:

.

A few remarks that engage only me:

The food produced is strong, which forces you to fight unhappiness quite often but without necessarily being able to place specialists (I play Tradition/Statecraft). I think the Jama'ah should have a -1 Urbanization rather than Distress, that would work better with civ.
The culture is catastrophic but I don't know if it's because I spread myself too much or that I play badly, to see.
It's a civ that could play a little more cultural pressure given certain components but the fact of placing GPAWMs like Imajal limits that a lot. This one should maybe give some tourism, in the technology bonuses.

Otherwise, hats off :hatsoff:

to the reworked 3Dmodels, the Aysas is simply magnificent.

Ah yes, last point, the two Tnoy are not recognizable in the texts and suddenly, in the requests of the city states, we do not know which one they want.

Thank you for this nice gift with an interesting design but also a real artistic beauty (I took part in it a little but I hadn't seen the whole thing, I'm enjoying it

)

Hinin · May 1, 2022

Some pieces of advice :
- The fact you can use Citizens to produce Tnoy allows you to convert excess population directly into military power. It also allows your cities with high food output to still be able to pump out units at least until Renaissance.
- Despite their main use as yield tiles, the Imajal can also be used to secure key resources, including next to your territory. Since they produce a lot of yields, they'll naturally be targeted by your cities for border growth (synergizing with the BGrowth points gained from the UA), and cannot be pillaged or removed, so they can be crucial to avoid seeing your luxury and strategic resources pillages during wars.

Rosete · May 2, 2022

Does the Imajal provide bonus to GP bulb effect, if so which one? Or is it strictly a big yield tile?

Hinin · May 2, 2022

Rosete said:
Does the Imajal provide bonus to GP bulb effect, if so which one? Or is it strictly a big yield tile?

It provides bulb for Great Engineer, Great Scientist and Great Merchant. That said, it is even less pronounced than the Oppidum, since you can gain Imajals through cultural Great People and GGeneral too.

Rosete · May 7, 2022

Some feedback:

I really like the divination promotion, they are strong but not overwhelmingly so.

Under the stars is very iffy. The bonus is small and is so tough to proc that I question a bit why such a bonus is included. It is a nice bonus, but not something you will care about 90% of the time.

Slither is way way way too strong with both ignore ZOC and ignore terrain. It enables me to constantly rotate unit 3 tiles deep and snipe low health units deep inside enemy lines. I think the unit will be more balanced if one of those component is removed, either the unit ignores ZOC or ignores terrain, both at once made the horse unit obsolete because your mele is now Uber horses that can tank.

The tnoy I mostly use to fulfill CS quest, I didn't bother using them much. Horses are not tough enough to survive long if you use them to snipe vulnerable units, and not tanky enough to stay long on the frontline, plus they are very expensive. It is much better to save money and hammers for the aysas, which does everything the tnoy does and much better because of the slither promotion.

Not much to say about the Imajal and Jama'ah, I like them, they provide nice bonuses and are very unique.

Rekk · May 7, 2022

I agree, Under the Stars isn't strong enough to base a campaign around keeping in range of the trade unit.

Hinin · May 7, 2022

V.2 online :
- Leader : tweakes flavors, changed Secondary Victory Pursuit to Cultural
- UA : reduced conversion rate from 20 to 15% ; reduced yields from TRoutes from 6 to 5, but swapped Border Growth points with Culture ; combat bonus from Trade Routes increased from +15% CS to +20% CS
- UU1 : removed Ignores ZOC from Slither, but added small damage to adjacent hostile Units whenever the Unit moves ; added Great General I to the Unit
- UGPTI : added 1 Tourism to the base yields and to the yields from City Connection Roads / Railroads
- UU2 : made a unique name for the Horse version of the Tnoy so that you can know what version of the unit a City-State wants
- UB : changed -1 Unhappiness from Distress to Urbanization

Thank you all for your feedback. I'll continue to tweak values and buff nerf aspects of the civ when necessary, so don't hesitate to leave a comment, positive or negative. :thumbsup:

looorg · May 10, 2022

(I tried this with v2) But I do find it quite hard to get a decent start with this civ. It's basically down to the lack of food storage buildings, the farms doesn't matter. I rarely build farms until way late in the game. But it's the food storage (granary, aqueduct, grocer, agribiz, hospitals etc) buildings that are really missing and there is no compensation for it really. So it's not food buildings that you can't build, it's food storage/overflow buildings that you can't build. While it's ok in the start you eventually start to notice that while you start from scratch every citizen you where not supposed to and you pop vs other civs is really lacking.

Technically you can get some storage with Mandirs and I think it's one of the Tradition policies etc. But it's pitiful in comparison to what the storage buildings give. Perhaps it should be more correct to point out that it's building with food storage that you can't build as you can actually build buildings that give food or enhance food production (well, watermill, lighthouse, herbalist etc). The gold to food conversion will eventually perhaps make up for part of it but then it's sort of way late to the game.

You could just cheese this whole food aspect of the game/civ by just going coastal, take a coastal pantheon and just go for maximum seafood with your lighthouses and harbors -- you might want to line it up for the Great Lighthouse and Colossus if you can. Or go for camps as they are not hindered or limited in that aspect. But still you will miss the overflow/storage.

Also worth to note that you can't send internal trade routes for food, you can only send internal trade routes for production if you have it otherwise you have to trade with others.

It's not very clear either which great people can create the Imajal. Is it all or just some? If I read Great People I assume it's just all of them, but I could be wrong. I have not really gotten a start I like so far to come that deep into it.

The horse unit isn't really all that impressive, it's just to weak vs the spearmen of various kinds (and all their various unique versions or upgrades) to waste precious food and pops to build. One hit or so and then you have to run away or die. It's quite inferior to just building your own spearmen instead. But the horse units are really not worth it. It might be worth building them and then just keeping them around until much much later but I doubt it.

I do like the unique promotions tho, but it's kind of weird that it's only for melee land units and not horse units as you have a unique horse unit. Sort of incentivizes you even more not to build then and instead build warriors and spearmen to get the promotion. Unfortunate that there isn't one for the archery branch either.

Hinin · May 10, 2022

looorg said:
The gold to food conversion will eventually perhaps make up for part of it but then it's sort of way late to the game.

Also don't forget the bonus food from Trade Routes. It's +6 Food per Trade Route from the start, and then it increases every era after classical.
@gwennog managed to have a huge capital with this civ (34 pop at industrial), so it's far from impossible. Focus more on Gold and Trade Route, and you'll see your cities gain traction quite a lot.

looorg said:
Also worth to note that you can't send internal trade routes for food, you can only send internal trade routes for production if you have it otherwise you have to trade with others.

To me, the UA bonus to food from all Trade Routes was meant to compensate for that.

looorg said:
It's not very clear either which great people can create the Imajal. Is it all or just some? If I read Great People I assume it's just all of them, but I could be wrong. I have not really gotten a start I like so far to come that deep into it.

All Great People (except the Great Admiral obviously) can build the Imajal. That means that all your cultural Great People can too, and so that Guilds are important to you even if you don't always want to go for Great Works : they are a way to spawn Imajals at a far greater rate.

looorg said:
I do like the unique promotions tho, but it's kind of weird that it's only for melee land units and not horse units as you have a unique horse unit. Sort of incentivizes you even more not to build then and instead build warriors and spearmen to get the promotion. Unfortunate that there isn't one for the archery branch either.

Hmmm... Sorry to ask, but have you truly tested the civ ? The Melee Land Units denomination is for all Land Units that fight in Melee. That includes :
- Melee Units : Spearman and Swordsman branches, including the Aysas
- Mounted Units : Horseman branch, including the Tnoy
- Gun Units : Tercio and following
- Armor Units : Landship and following
- Recon Unit : Pathfinder and following
=> This kind of general denomination is also used for Denmark : all the unit lines above get the Viking promotion.

This means that the Tnoy automatically gains the Divination promotion. This is why I didn't make it more powerful : it is an early unit which can gain levels fast, is fieldable quickly and en masse (especially if you have cities with too much food and you want to convert your excess citizens into military power) and can be quite threatening depending on the type of promotion it gains from Divination.

Edit : Mounted Units is for Horseman and following, while Skirmishers and such are considered "Archer Units" for the sake of bonuses.

looorg · May 10, 2022

Hinin said:
Also don't forget the bonus food from Trade Routes. It's +6 Food per Trade Route from the start, and then it increases every era after classical.
@gwennog managed to have a huge capital with this civ (34 pop at industrial), so it's far from impossible. Focus more on Gold and Trade Route, and you'll see your cities gain traction quite a lot.

That isn't really what I said. I said it was hard to get a good start. Much more so then most other civs. But it's clearly doable and it's slow to take off in that regard but eventually it does. That said the way I do it seems to be somewhat counter to the idea of a north african trade civilization as I went coastal and built a lot of fish improvements. That also gains a lot of gold so it's sort of double dip in that regard. It's the only way really I have been early able to keep up population on a level with the AI (deity, marathon, huge map). But then I did plot out to take a lot of available buildings and wonders and such things that gave food storage to to counter the normal lack of it.

Hinin said:
To me, the UA bonus to food from all Trade Routes was meant to compensate for that.

That was not meant like that. It was just a note that you couldn't send food trade routes. So if nobody is close and you don't have a stone works then things will be somewhat bad. So it was more for clarification that you can't send food traderoutes, not that you don't gain food (and those other yields from it -- culture, golden age etc).

Hinin said:
This means that the Tnoy automatically gains the Divination promotion. This is why I didn't make it more powerful : it is an early unit which can gain levels fast, is fieldable quickly and en masse (especially if you have cities with too much food and you want to convert your excess citizens into military power) and can be quite threatening depending on the type of promotion it gains from Divination.

I did note it after I had written the first comment. Doesn't really change much tho since the horseman is still a horrible unit, even with the promotion and it's uniqueness here. As soon as the barbarian spearmen come out it becomes next to worthless until it's next upgrade. So to build the Tnoys that also then builds like a settler doesn't exactly make one jump for joy for them. Even with the divination promotion it's just a bad unit, general for horsemen and for this since there really isn't much difference. If one discounts the promotion it has the same base strength as a horseman, they cost as much etc. I can't really see a reason why you would build them.

I have not experienced any population issues or unhappiness issues in that regard so I don't see why I would dump them into a horseman, certainly not when I can get a settler instead.

Mostly tho I guess this was a matter of interpretation. Not a point I would spend any time arguing about or over. But when I read Melee Land it's Warriors, Spearmen, Swordsmen etc. as they are in the game denoted as being Melee units. Horsemen are Mounted Units and in that regard a different class of units. But sure they are also on land and do melee attacks. Still I wouldn't count them as that at first glance, which I didn't. But it was more a point of clarification then anything else. That said it didn't really change anything as far as the Tnoy and Horsemen go, it's still a horrible unit (with the possible exception if you play Authority) not worth the cost of production.

Hinin · May 10, 2022

looorg said:
Mostly tho I guess this was a matter of interpretation. Not a point I would spend any time arguing about or over. But when I read Melee Land it's Warriors, Spearmen, Swordsmen etc. as they are in the game denoted as being Melee units. Horsemen are Mounted Units and in that regard a different class of units. But sure they are also on land and do melee attacks. Still I wouldn't count them as that at first glance, which I didn't. But it was more a point of clarification then anything else. That said it didn't really change anything as far as the Tnoy and Horsemen go, it's still a horrible unit (with the possible exception if you play Authority) not worth the cost of production.

The Horsemen in general must be horrible to you too, I guess. I won't put more onto the unit. It already has a lot.

looorg said:
That isn't really what I said. I said it was hard to get a good start. Much more so then most other civs. But it's clearly doable and it's slow to take off in that regard but eventually it does. That said the way I do it seems to be somewhat counter to the idea of a north african trade civilization as I went coastal and built a lot of fish improvements. That also gains a lot of gold so it's sort of double dip in that regard. It's the only way really I have been early able to keep up population on a level with the AI (deity, marathon, huge map). But then I did plot out to take a lot of available buildings and wonders and such things that gave food storage to to counter the normal lack of it.

Ok, sorry about that. I understand your pov.

looorg said:
That was not meant like that. It was just a note that you couldn't send food trade routes. So if nobody is close and you don't have a stone works then things will be somewhat bad. So it was more for clarification that you can't send food traderoutes, not that you don't gain food (and those other yields from it -- culture, golden age etc).

I may give the civ the ability to do food ITRs from the start. That could help quite a lot I think, and would carry on for the rest of the game.

looorg said:
Mostly tho I guess this was a matter of interpretation. Not a point I would spend any time arguing about or over. But when I read Melee Land it's Warriors, Spearmen, Swordsmen etc. as they are in the game denoted as being Melee units. Horsemen are Mounted Units and in that regard a different class of units. But sure they are also on land and do melee attacks. Still I wouldn't count them as that at first glance, which I didn't. But it was more a point of clarification then anything else. That said it didn't really change anything as far as the Tnoy and Horsemen go, it's still a horrible unit (with the possible exception if you play Authority) not worth the cost of production.

Maybe "Land Units who fight in Melee" would do better indeed. I simply followed the track created for Denmark.

Hinin · May 10, 2022

V.3 online :
- Fixed a problem with the Imajal Build action that didn't remove forests / jungles / marshes
- Gave Amazigh Cities the ability to use Food Internal Trade Routes from the start of the game

looorg · May 10, 2022

Hinin said:
The Horsemen in general must be horrible to you too, I guess. I won't put more onto the unit. It already has a lot.

Pretty much. They are sort of buildable I guess if you are authority and you can go aroudn tributing with them. Or they become buildable when they can be upgraded to knights. But to have them run around like a horseman is very meh. That said if you click on the big round icon in the bottom left showing the unit when you have built it the Ayis will show the horseman info if you click that shortcut to come to the civilopedia page for the unit. In general I'm not big on horse units they are a tad to squishy for my taste.

ridjack · May 11, 2022

looorg said:
Pretty much. They are sort of buildable I guess if you are authority and you can go aroudn tributing with them. Or they become buildable when they can be upgraded to knights. But to have them run around like a horseman is very meh. That said if you click on the big round icon in the bottom left showing the unit when you have built it the Ayis will show the horseman info if you click that shortcut to come to the civilopedia page for the unit. In general I'm not big on horse units they are a tad to squishy for my taste.

I don't generally use horse units much myself, but the ~~Aysas~~ Tnoy are a lot better than they seem, particularly if you get the 100% withdrawal chance. I was able to use them to flank and kill spearmen pretty much without retaliation, and the ability to build them without Horses means you can have a defensive army that's pretty much unparalleled in the early game.

Hinin · May 11, 2022

ridjack said:
the Aysas are a lot better than they seem

You mean the Tnoy ?

gwennog · May 11, 2022

Hinin said:
Fixed a problem with the Imajal Build action that didn't remove forests / jungles / marshes

I hadn't reported it, I thought it was normal

.

Hinin said:
Gave Amazigh Cities the ability to use Food Internal Trade Routes from the start of the game

The idea is good but I would rather be for :c5production:

production, to help a little the civilization which is struggling to start.

Hinin · May 11, 2022

gwennog said:
The idea is good but I would rather be for production, to help a little the civilization which is struggling to start.

The fact is that not having access to the Granary means the Imazighen don't have access to Food ITRs in the early, while they still can gain access to Production ITRs through Stone Works and Workshops. They are not the Tlingit or Songhai, and so shouldn't have access to Production ITRs before other normal civs.

Hinin's Imazighen (Dihya al-Kahina) for VP

Emperor

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Emperor

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