Hinin's Imazighen (Dihya al-Kahina) for VP

looorg

King
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
706
I don't generally use horse units much myself, but the Aysas are a lot better than they seem, particularly if you get the 100% withdrawal chance. I was able to use them to flank and kill spearmen pretty much without retaliation, and the ability to build them without Horses means you can have a defensive army that's pretty much unparalleled in the early game.

I just assume you are referring to the Tnoy otherwise you are talking about the Spear/Pikeman. Which are great. You can use them like celtic chariots and rend units to death. Retreating doesn't really kill units tho, so something has to come in there and get rid of them.

It's like one in four that you get Liquid moon which would then be the "good" one (or best one or whatever). Out of 15 units I have 3 with Liquid and only one of them is a horseman. While it's good it doesn't change really that you can really only hit a spearman once, twice is pushing it and then you better get away if you want to live. In that regard it would probably be better to have Crushing sun so you make that big first attack and then you can bugger of to safety and healing. So while it might be nice with Liquid moon you can't really build an army based on a one in four random promotion that may or may not be equally distributed, it probably is I have not checked the code or anything. That said I'm sure they'll be better as Knights.

In some regard I'm more in favor of Guiding Star so I get the extra movement. I have gotten that on a fair amount of Aysas so they are very fast in that regard.They are far superior to the Tnoys (not only cause they are pikemen so they have a higher level in that regard).

That said I had to resort as per usual to rename the units so I know which has which promotion as I don't fancy looking at little icons to see them when I can just see big bold text instead telling me.

aysas crush x2
aysas guide x3
aysas ram x1
aysas liquid x1
tnoy liquid x1
tnoy ram x2
tnoy guide x1
scout liquid x1
scout ram x1
swordman crush x2
(+ there are a couple of compbows and catapults to but since they don't get promotions they are not included)

But (Crush 4, Guide 4, Ram 4, Liquid 3) so it seems like an even distribution, one or two or three units have died so I'm not sure what they had but I doubt it would change much.

(edit) Liquid doesn't translate into extra movement when disembarked but that is probably normal and working as intended.

That said I restarted (for version3) and decided to tweak the world a bit to create more of a desert world (to fit the civ) and that turned out to be great. Perhaps so cause the AI is so bad at it. I have already laid waste to two rivals (Sweden and Austria) and I just entered the medieval era. So it's not that it can't be played with or is bad like that, it's just horsemen are not the backbone of any army. That said I do have four of them but they seem to mostly just be there and they are not really doing much -- one attack and then off to heal. They bulk up army score in some sense but they don't become "good" (or safe) until you can get Stalwart on them and that is some far away promotion in most cases (but not unobtainable if you just follow the city-state conquest quest path).
 
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looorg

King
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Dec 22, 2010
Messages
706
These are the buildings you can't build (I might have missed one or so but I think these are most of them).
granary 25 free food, 15% overflow
aqueduct 15% overflow; +25% production; -1 poverty (can't build Garden without it)
grocer 15% overflow; -1 poverty
hospital +food; 5% food=science; -1 poverty; supply
medical lab; pop; 15% overflow; -1 poverty; specialists++
agribiz; farms/pasture; 10% food=gold

Not being able to build farms doesn't really matter all that much. But by not being able to build food storage (or overflow) buildings you are basically missing out on a lot of free food as when a pop grows you restart from zero all the time. It's not really a super big issue by itself, you'll grow eventually but just at a somewhat slower pace. But perhaps more important then that is that these buildings have a lot to do with the removal of poverty unhappiness which can't be gained from other sources in the same regard. Then there are a few other side effects such as the Aqueduct is also a production loss as it's one of the early larger production boosters. The Hospital turning food into science and that the Agribusiness turns food into gold. I'm not sure the trade route yields are carrying that loss. It certainly does nothing really for the need for poverty reduction.

So in some regard it's mostly about the poverty unhappiness so far that I noted. At around size 10 or so the loss of poverty reduction is getting really noticeable and it's getting to be a pain to stay happy in the minor cities, the mega cities are still fine since they usually have wonders and such that grant extra happiness and are just large enough to gain or be able to work multiple specialists and have almost all the buildings available. So there is this really awkward phase when the cities are small they run into a lot of happiness issues before they can break the ceiling or gain enough population momentum to overcome these things.

As far as total population size due to the lack of food overflow the rivals will gain pop a lot o faster then you do. At first it might not be noticeable but give it some time and you'll notice the gap. That doesn't mean you can't have big cities (I'm currently mid Ren and my capital is about to become size 30). It's just that the rivals total pop is now much larger then yours. My main rival in the current game is Dido and we have the same amount of cities and we live on different islands, her pantheon or religion doesn't give her any food. Her capital is just size 20. but her population is almost 1/3 larger then mine (204 vs 272). Rivals with around five cities less then me (and Dido) have the same pop as me (Askia and England in particular). This is more or less overflow in action given a few hundred turns of game play on marathon at about 1/3 of the total number of turns (T585 as I write this).

It is not that you can't have large cities, just looking at the capitals here and we have -- Baghai 29, Berlin 25, Carthage 20, London 19, Gao 19, Ulundi 18, Attila 17, Persepolis 16, Paris 14; I don't know the size of the Indo capital but considering they are a vassal of Askia I doubt it's very large, Stockholm and Vienna are size 9 and 11 as I knocked both of them out of the game as they didn't deserve to live on my island).

But all the Imajals and trade routes in the world doesn't make up for that growth loss as you can't have them everywhere and you sort of build this one gigantic metropolis but for the rest of the empire it kind of sucks and most of the cities are currently stuck in this very unhappy state where they are to small (around size 10 or so) to really push beyond their size and become something and this is in some regard due to the lack of food overflow and a lack of poverty reduction.

The customs house is probably the only building you have now that grants poverty reduction. Beyond that you have to run public works or poverty runs rampant. But the cities are so small that running public works now takes a really long time. Sure you could build Tnoys for the small cities to deal with their unhappy pops but it doesn't really help them in the long run as they then stay small forever. They never reach critical mass and growth.

Also other buildings that you can build are somewhat less effective or productive in some regard as they are still full cost but only get partial benefits since there are now so many buildings that you can't build such as the Windmill which is now a production building as it does nothing to granaries and grocers as you can't build them. Not being able to build a Garden is a fairly big loss to (since you can't build an Aqueducts you can't have gardens -- I guess you could have one if you built the Hanging Gardens wonder), and some of it is mitigated by the Jama.
 
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Rekk

Emperor
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Messages
1,998
You could try something like "Can't build farms, doesn't benefit from food produced by buildings" instead.
 

gwennog

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May 31, 2015
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671
Location
France
Playing the V2 actually (without food trade routes) and I really have no problem or delay in food, third in population and crop yield. When you found a new city it is good to start a TR from it. Its size and its borders grow fast enough to quickly give a exploitable city.
But to give all the information, I play with MWfVP which has several wonders which give additional TRs. Maybe add a mechanism that would give one or more TRs.
 

looorg

King
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
706
Playing the V2 actually (without food trade routes) and I really have no problem or delay in food, third in population and crop yield. When you found a new city it is good to start a TR from it. Its size and its borders grow fast enough to quickly give a exploitable city.
But to give all the information, I play with MWfVP which has several wonders which give additional TRs. Maybe add a mechanism that would give one or more TRs.

That is an interesting tactic I didn't think about or try. That said I didn't send a lot of food trade routes. But getting as an example the capital to grow wasn't an issue, mine is the largest city in the world (as I left industrial it was almost up to size 40, fueld by seven of those villages and a few trade routes). My issue was mainly with that given enough land and equal or similar amount of cities you really notice that you don't have food storage and overflow buildings as the AI quickly overtake you on population eventually. It seems fine at first but eventually it adds up. For some reason I also don't think I have had a game where so many of those stupid events show up spoiling food and now it hurts cause you don't have that overflow but starts from scratch every pop born (or almost as I got some overflow from a couple of wonders, buildings and policies).I did inherit some farms from Sweden and Austria but they are very lackluster as they are not in triangles and you don't have the buildings to improve them. Wheat is a prime candidate for putting down an Imajal tho so it's not a loss in that regard.

Having entered modern era now I think I only have 9 trade routes (including one extra from Petra and another 2 from Industry) and I guess I'll get another 2 from Corporation if there is one when I get there. But it's not enough to have every city run their own trade route. I guess if you are small. I'm starting to be small. I was large but then Askia and England decided they wanted to rule the world and started to kill off their rivals. So I'm waiting for them to duke it out over their shared continent. All my trade routes are now internal there is just to much war to send them off-island and Dido was being annoying and sphering the city-states on my island so I eventually had to conquer them one after another. A slight loss trade route wise but so be it.

I think it was more abotu the poverty reduction that somewhat hurts, you are left with one or two buildings that can reduce it as the rest are gone. But that can be overcome to eventually but it looks really weird as you capital pushed past 40 and most other cities are struggling around 10-15 and have crippling unhappiness. But you have to push past the global averages and just run the food process from time to time, which is a bit weird but viable. Slowly the imajals are spreading out across the land tho. Most cities have at least one and most of them have several but not as many as the capital have, I still have room for a one or two more but I'm contemplating if I should run some roads over them and where to place them.

Reformation - To the Glory of God seems somewhat essential so you can guarantee a great person every few turns in addition to various natural growth once. Plus a faith engine to keep it rolling. But since you can just get anyone you can just buy whatever is the cheapest (trying to match with current city-state quests etc). But I had to eventually build some great improvements that wasn't Imajals to fill some gaps cause at size 40+ you need every tile and to do something on them.

Also I found that Freedom - Universal Healthcare is broken, you can't get Hospitals that way. It does nothing if you pick it, except waste a policy. I figured I had to try and see if I could sneak me some free hospitals. But no.
 
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