Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Kupe Navigator]

Every place need some kind of censorship even this forum.

No wonder why China isn't winning Cultural Victory in real life anytime soon.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Now they look to the old China as a comunist aspiration, once I hear Xi Jinping saying the China always was comunist,

Kinda funny how communism didn't originated from China.

 

[Plotinus]

Despite we are running in an anachronist dispute. I should ask, why Plato would approve the Vatican?
Is an elected monarchy better than the communism?

Yes, from Plato's point of view. The Vatican is - at least in theory - run by an elite group of fabulously well educated men (no women) with special training in spiritual philosophy and a religion which in many respects replicates Plato's own thought. He'd have approved of all of this. He'd have hated the very idea of communism.

Maybe the Cultural Revolution was an error under Mao Zedong regime, but communism in China had the power to reinvented it self and never again will repeat this kind of error. Now a days they change a lot. Now they look to the old China as a comunist aspiration, once I hear Xi Jinping saying the China always was comunist, because comunism is very linked in base ideas of chineses philosofers as Lao Tsé and Confucius.

I don't see how anyone could genuinely think this. Confucianism is a fundamentally conservative philosophy which would be absolutely opposed to the notion of revolution. And politically speaking, Taoism is a broadly libertarian philosophy which would be absolutely opposed to the notion of state control.

 

[Henri Christophe]

No wonder why China isn't winning Cultural Victory in real life anytime soon.

If this charge was published in chinese it has a chinese audiance as a focus. That mean the censure in China isn't so mad as you are talking, because it's allowed this meme to go out.
Also the real life isn't as a game. China isn't want a "Cultural Victory" they just want to have their own lifes without Western intervantion. And they are producing some good filmes and novels.

I don't see how anyone could genuinely think this. Confucianism is a fundamentally conservative philosophy which would be absolutely opposed to the notion of revolution. And politically speaking, Taoism is a broadly libertarian philosophy which would be absolutely opposed to the notion of state control.

Since we are anachronist about Plato's toughts, why can't Chinese governement be anachronist with their philosofers? At least both Confucius and Lao Tsé teach things as follow the ruler, be obdient, be please for an hierarchy. This kind of teaches fit very well in the modern china communist propaganda

 

[Plotinus]

Since we are anachronist about Plato's toughts, why can't Chinese governement be anachronist with their philosofers?

Well, I'm opposing anachronism on all sides. But here the issue isn't anachronism, it's accuracy.

At least both Confucius and Lao Tsé teach things as follow the ruler, be obdient, be please for an hierarchy. This kind of teaches fit very well in the modern china communist propaganda

Confucius did teach that, certainly. However, he also taught the importance of learning and tradition, which may fit with what China's current leaders want to promote but doesn't have much in common with most of the history of communism in China, or indeed anywhere else.

And Lao Tzu absolutely did not teach the importance of political obedience and hierarchies. Quite the reverse - he taught wuwei, which in a political context means a lack of laws and a lack of action by the state. Taoists traditionally have been suspicious of hierarchies, learning, and political power. So I really don't see how one could make any case at all for aligning him with any form of communism, which is fundamentally opposed to his philosophy.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

If this charge was published in chinese it has a chinese audiance as a focus. That mean the censure in China isn't so mad as you are talking, because it's allowed this meme to go out.

Bullcrap. That is like American people protesting against Vietnam War wasn't so mad at war because they are allowed to protest. Also who is to say this cartoon was created in China? Who is to say it was created in pre 2020 HK or Taiwan or even in America by Chinese American?

Also the real life isn't as a game. China isn't want a "Cultural Victory" they just want to have their own lifes without Western intervantion. And they are producing some good filmes and novels

I was talking about figuratively... a metaphor if you will. Like how across the world people are rushhing in to see latest Marvel movies, go to see KPOP concert and be passionate about anime. While almost no one outside of China gives a damn about Chinese movies.
I have seen more non Americans be a fans of Captain America, An American be fans of BTS, A British people be a fans of Anime than a non-chinse people care about any Chinese media.
Why this matter?
Because my dear Henri. Media is what promotes soft power and soft power is what influnces people to have a postive thoughts about that nation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sof...ense, it is,people rather than coerces them."

 

[Patine]

I've not gone anywhere, just become a little more sporadic!



Bureaucracy doesn't instil wisdom. Quite the contrary, one might think. Plato's point (it's not Socrates', whatever that video says) is that political influence should be coupled to wisdom. That's not the same thing as the ability to pass exams. Indeed Plato would be very suspicious of any writing-based selection system since he also thought that the written word was morally suspect too. He would also be fundamentally opposed to communism as a philosophy because it is materialistic. The closest thing to a system of government today that Plato would approve of would probably be the Vatican.

Despite we are running in an anachronist dispute. I should ask, why Plato would approve the Vatican?
Is an elected monarchy better than the communism?

Even worse than what Athens did, Henri, is that the PRC would arrest Socrates for his rhetoric (which IS indeed VERY much counter to CCP thinking, despite the bizarre view you've gained of it), send him to a, "reeducation," camp, put him through a, "struggle session," and if he broke, have him mechanically and soullessly recant all his beliefs to his students, and if he didn't break, he'd never be seen, again.

 

[Henri Christophe]

And Lao Tzu absolutely did not teach the importance of political obedience and hierarchies. Quite the reverse - he taught wuwei, which in a political context means a lack of laws and a lack of action by the state. Taoists traditionally have been suspicious of hierarchies, learning, and political power. So I really don't see how one could make any case at all for aligning him with any form of communism, which is fundamentally opposed to his philosophy.

There is a poem of Lao Tsé who says. Is the duty of the grass get down when the winds blow. I understand it as, everyone needs to know what is your place in society, if you are a king (the wind) your duty is blow but if you are a subject (the grass) your duty is get down to the wind.
Indeed Lao Tsé speaks about the lack of action, but this don't mean the lack of governement. Indeed Lao Tsé have some poems about governement and some time the best option to a governement is doing nothing (lack of action) because when he does nothing, it is doing something.

who is to say this cartoon was created in China? Who is to say it was created in pre 2020 HK or Taiwan or even in America by Chinese American?

From Taiwan this charge is not, because in Taiwan they used classical chinese, different from the simplify chinese used by communist China.

Even worse than what Athens did, Henri, is that the PRC would arrest Socrates for his rhetoric (which IS indeed VERY much counter to CCP thinking, despite the bizarre view you've gained of it), send him to a, "reeducation," camp, put him through a, "struggle session," and if he broke, have him mechanically and soullessly recant all his beliefs to his students, and if he didn't break, he'd never be seen, again.

Socrates fit my rethoric because I, as Socrates, don't like democracy.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Honestly Henri, America isn't great. It has A LOT of problems but if I was given a choice of living in America or China... I would rather live in US simply because I would rather live in a place where I don't get arrested simply because I disagree strongly with the government and where media don't get censored

From Taiwan this charge is not, because in Taiwan they used classical chinese, different from the simplify chinese used by communist China

That wasn't even my point. The point is the cartoonist ( presumably of Chinese orgin) isn't happy with strong censorship in China that makes their media weak compared to US, S.Korean and Japanese media.

Socrates fit my rethoric because I, as Socrates, don't like democracy

Why did Socrates hate Democracy though?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Honestly Henri, America isn't great. It has A LOT of problems but if I was given a choice of living in America or China... I would rather live in US simply because I would rather live in a place where I don't get arrested simply because I disagree strongly with the government and where media don't get censored

If i'm able to choice, I would prefer live in China. Each person have their own preferences.

That wasn't even my point. The point is the cartoonist ( presumably of Chinese orgin) isn't happy with strong censorship in China that makes their media weak compared to US, S.Korean and Japanese media.

I understand what the charge want to say, and if he is from China that means this kind of charge is allowed in China, that make the censorship weaker then you think

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I understand what the charge want to say, and if he is from China that means this kind of charge is allowed in China, that make the censorship weaker then you think

Again just because this cartoon exists doesn't mean censorship is weak. Stop trying to dodge the point. 1 you don't even know if it is from China. It could be created from overseas Chinese person who hates how CCP manages things.
2. Just because people are criticizing doses not mean the problem dose not exist.

Please do some research on Chinese censorship.

 

[Patine]

Socrates fit my rethoric because I, as Socrates, don't like democracy.

Fascist leaders, absolute monarchs, theocrats, conquerors, warlords, military dictators, cult-of-personality dictators, and Donald Trump all also show a dislike to hatred range of feelings toward Democracy. All of them are also hated by, and hating, Communism, as an ideology, immensely.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Henri just admit that you are wrong about China.

 

[innonimatu]

I don't see how anyone could genuinely think this. Confucianism is a fundamentally conservative philosophy which would be absolutely opposed to the notion of revolution. And politically speaking, Taoism is a broadly libertarian philosophy which would be absolutely opposed to the notion of state control.

To be fair I can see ways to defend his position without obvious contradictions. I'm sure the CPC is absolutely opposed to a revolution in China now. And if they're, shall we say, philosophically communist, the goal remains to abolish the state, the revolution step was already done.

 

[Patine]

To be fair I can see ways to defend his position without obvious contradictions. I'm sure the CPC is absolutely opposed to a revolution in China now. And if they're, shall we say, philosophically communist, the goal remains to abolish the state, the revolution step was already done.

But they ARE, effectively, for all intents and purposes, THE STATE, on Mainland China. Abolishing the State would be committing political suicide, where they stand now.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Henri just admit that you are wrong about China.

I'm wrong about which aspect of China? I still love China, I don't mind if there is censure their, I believe some kind of censure is needed to avoid contra-revolutionary movement and west influency.

Speaking about west influency, the censure in China afects even Hollywood, who need to portrait chinese people as hero in order to have it's movies allowed in China.
Just imagine if the muslim world did the same, from where the Hollywood will take their vilains of his movies?

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I still love China, I don't mind if there is censure their, I believe some kind of censure is needed to avoid contra-revolutionary movement and west influency

*mentions American crimes against native Americans and blacks as well as crimes in Vietnam and Afghanistan war*
US government: OK.
*mentions one letter of tiananmen square*
CCP: traitor into jail you go!
Honestly doesn't censorship mean they are afraid of the truth? Why can't Chinese people talk what they want and talk about their shameful past freely. American people can do it. German people talk about Nazism freely. Korean people do it. Why can't China?

 

[Henri Christophe]

*mentions American crimes against native Americans and blacks as well as crimes in Vietnam and Afghanistan war*
US government: OK.
*mentions one letter of tiananmen square*
CCP: traitor into jail you go!
Honestly doesn't censorship mean they are afraid of the truth? Why can't Chinese people talk what they want and talk about their shameful past freely. American people can do it. German people talk about Nazism freely. Korean people do it. Why can't China?

This debate over censorship will be forever? It can't because the freedom of speech can allow anti-revolutionary movement and West influency.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

It can't because the freedom of speech can allow anti-revolutionary movement and West influency.

isn't it what slavery is basically? what tired old excuse is what dictators use now days against its people. Heck that is what Chun Doo-hwan ( Korean dictator) used when he brutally ruled Korea. That is what Putin used and now look at Russia now. There are so many ways to fight against "revolutionary ideas" then oppressing them.

 

[Plotinus]

There is a poem of Lao Tsé who says. Is the duty of the grass get down when the winds blow. I understand it as, everyone needs to know what is your place in society, if you are a king (the wind) your duty is blow but if you are a subject (the grass) your duty is get down to the wind.

Are you referring to Lao Tzu 76? This isn't what it means. There's nothing in there about "duty". The "wind" doesn't represent those in positions of political power - it represents nature. The point of the chapter is that it is foolish to try to resist nature. One should instead allow nature to determine your actions. This is a central idea in Taoism. There is nothing in that chapter to suggest that some people have the role of the wind and others the role of the grass - on the contrary, the chapter stresses the universality of the law that resisting nature is associated with death and pliability in the face of nature is associated with life. Everyone should follow the example of the grass.

Indeed Lao Tsé speaks about the lack of action, but this don't mean the lack of governement. Indeed Lao Tsé have some poems about governement and some time the best option to a governement is doing nothing (lack of action) because when he does nothing, it is doing something.

This is all correct, but I don't really see how it supports what you're saying.