Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Henri Christophe]

He isn't that weird. He is dressed in a clothes that is suitable for swampy area like Kongo. What about Shaka Zulu?
What makes alfonso's outfit makes him babaric?

I want to know in what picture the Fireaxis is inspired to do Mvemba a Nzinga, I understand they try to do an african leader before the influence of Europeans, despite the fact Mvemba adopting the European style in his dress code.
I believe Fireaxis just invented for full imagination how Mvemba is dressed with no correlection with reallity. This community speak so much about a trustworthy representation of historic events, so why Mvemba can't have their real dress code in this game?

 

[Patine]

I want to know in what picture the Fireaxis is inspired to do Mvemba a Nzinga, I understand they try to do an african leader before the influence of Europeans, despite the fact Mvemba adopting the European style in his dress code.
I believe Fireaxis just invented for full imagination how Mvemba is dressed with no correlection with reallity. This community speak so much about a trustworthy representation of historic events, so why Mvemba can't have their real dress code in this game?

Why are you blaming this WHOLE community for the visions, based on very limited reliable source material, of a few graphics designers at Firaxis, if I may ask?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Why are you blaming this WHOLE community for the visions, based on very limited reliable source material, of a few graphics designers at Firaxis, if I may ask?

I'm blaming any one, I just want to discuss this matter.
And isn't limited reliable source material, there is a lot of pictures of Mvemba a Nzinga on the internet. Most of them he was using European clothes.
Now, I just want to understand from where was the clothe inspiration of Nzinga, because from reallity it isn't.

 

[Patine]

I'm blaming any one, I just want to discuss this matter.
And isn't limited reliable source material, there is a lot of pictures of Mvemba a Nzinga on the internet. Most of them he was using European clothes.
Now, I just want to understand from where was the clothe inspiration of Nzinga, because from reallity it isn't.

Well, yes, he probably had European-inspired clothing. His reign began over two decades after Portuguese contact, he converted to Catholicism in 1516 and changed his name to King Afonso I, formally, and began sponsoring the building of missions and church schools. Actually, the much more curious and strange decision by Firaxis, all-in-all, is why is he denied the ability to have a religion?

 

[Henri Christophe]

why is he denied the ability to have a religion?

Other big issue, since Congo had a religion before the europeans arrival. I understand Afonso I was converted pretty easy but in order to convert his reign was needed wars. I guess he has a nephew who doesn't tolerate christianity and fight against the conversion.
Moreover, this mechanic of no religion isn't fun either. I played with Kongo in domination mode and it is very annoying, even when I conquer the city, the religious discrict disapear.

However, the sub-topic now is his cloathes. If Afonso was well dressed, where come from the inspiration to Civilization's Afonso's clothes?
More pics about to him to see how unrelated it is:

 

[innonimatu]

Other big issue, since Congo had a religion before the europeans arrival. I understand Afonso I was converted pretty easy but in order to convert his reign was needed wars. I guess he has a nephew who doesn't tolerate christianity and fight against the conversion.
Moreover, this mechanic of no religion isn't fun either. I played with Kongo in domination mode and it is very annoying, even when I conquer the city, the religious discrict disapear.

However, the sub-topic now is his cloathes. If Afonso was well dressed, where come from the inspiration to Civilization's Afonso's clothes?
More pics about to him to see how unrelated it is:

The most you can expect in terms of contemporary pictures are fanciful drawings to accompany the editions of Filippo Pigafetta's Relação do Congo or the much later Historia do Congo. I've never held a copy of the original edition, the one I have available is text only. You may want to find a copy of the Relação to read, if you haven't already.

In any case your only available contemporary sources that may be reliable will be written records. The climate there is unforgiving of archeological traces of frail stuff, and the woodcuts made for any published contemporary books likely to be fanciful.. There is also lots of diplomatic and administrative documentation in the archives in Lisbon and Simancas (Spain) about embassies and trade with the Congo. But little is published. You'd have to go dig among the originals. I'm sure there are descriptions of the kingdom and its most important people somewhere there. Outside that you can look at published research, but will be limited to whatever interested the researchers who poked into those archives.

I'll also been speculated that Afonso I (Mvemba-a-Nzinga) was converting to catholicism, and trying to convert the kingdom, in an attempt to centralize power on himself. Not so much emulating european systems but reacting to the limitations the congolese system placed on his power. The traditional religion placed important on ancestors and lineage, and so a chief couldn't just usurp the people of another. Even the ascendant chief of the region would always depend on a feudal-stile relation. Catholicism might break that attachment between people and political lineage, to the benefit of the most powerful and expansionist chiefs? The others, of course, would oppose them...
In light if this, if the speculation is correct, his attempt ti christianize the kingdom may have extended to imposing european fashion among other nobles. Same logic as Louis XIV with Versailles: stress the resources of possible rivals by forcing them to spend on the "court life"?

 

[Henri Christophe]

@Ajidica,

Blatant wars of aggression are a good thing? The international community should stand by and do nothing? If Israel should invade Jordan, Syria, and Egypt and occupy Amman, Damascus, and Cairo on the grounds the borders of the Middle East being totally artificial, there should be no opposition?

If Israel do that, who will do something? The Police of the world? The USA?

The military operation to liberate Kuwait - noting the principle enshrined the Charter of the United Nations emphasizing the inadmissibility of territorial acquisition by force - was authorized by the United Nations Security Council in resolution 678, which passed with the consent of all permanent members of the council. Or are you saying we should live in a might-makes-right world?

So you think the boarders never more will change? We need to die with the arbitrarian lines made by europeans all over the world.
Why Sadam Hussein invades Kweit, I'm sure he has a good reason to do that and USA should do nothing.

 

[Ajidica]

Did anyone ask the Kuwaitis their thoughts on the matter? Or the Iranians?

I honestly don't get why you are trying to defend Saddam. Some misplaced anti-Americansim? Thinking American policy is rubbish and international law is selectively applied is one thing, none of that requires you to like Saddam.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Did anyone ask the Kuwaitis their thoughts on the matter? Or the Iranians?

I honestly don't get why you are trying to defend Saddam. Some misplaced anti-Americansim? Thinking American policy is rubbish and international law is selectively applied is one thing, none of that requires you to like Saddam.

I think Kuwaitians should solve their problems without US help, maybe US can send weapons, munitions and other aids. But not be allowed to do a full intervension in the country. What happens in Iraq was the same what happens in Lybia, US are taking out dictators to bring "democracy".
Just because believes democracy is something good, but not. It isn't necessarly good to everyone. Can be good to countries as USA, but isn't good in China (just to give an example).

I don't like Saddam, but I don't dislike him either.

 

[NovaKart]

But there was no regime change in Iraq after Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait was stopped. He was in power for many years after.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

It isn't necessarly good to everyone. Can be good to countries as USA, but isn't good in China (just to give an example).

How is it not good? That is just propaganda given by dictators to survive in 21st century. Heck Taiwan is basically China and it is doing fine... and India has more population than China now and it has democracy.

 

[Henri Christophe]

How is it not good? That is just propaganda given by dictators to survive in 21st century. Heck Taiwan is basically China and it is doing fine... and India has more population than China now and it has democracy.

Some countries can be good with Democracy, as India, USA or Brazil.
Others are pretty well without Democracy as China or Saudi Arabia, and it should be fine.
My problem is some countries as USA want to invade other countries (As Iraque or Lybia) to bring democracy as it something good, it isn't necessarily good for everyone.

My favorite example how dangerous democracy can be is in Rwanda, where have a majority of the population Hutu, but was historicaly ruled by Tutsi. When starts the Democracy in Rwanda it also start a genocide against Tutsi population and this genocide just stop when a Tutsi leader start a dictatorship. Now Rwanda is a good country, with a healthy Tutsi dictatorship.

 

[Patine]

Others are pretty well without Democracy as China or Saudi Arabia, and it should be fine.

Have you done a popular poll of the common people in a context where they can speak freely of these two countries to discern that things are, "fine." And Kagame's dictatorship versus Habyaramana's is mostly better economically and in lack of gratuitous bloodshed - not much else.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Some countries can be good with Democracy, as India, USA or Brazil.
Others are pretty well without Democracy as China or Saudi Arabia, and it should be fine.
My problem is some countries as USA want to invade other countries (As Iraque or Lybia) to bring democracy as it something good, it isn't necessarily good for everyone.

My favorite example how dangerous democracy can be is in Rwanda, where have a majority of the population Hutu, but was historicaly ruled by Tutsi. When starts the Democracy in Rwanda it also start a genocide against Tutsi population and this genocide just stop when a Tutsi leader start a dictatorship. Now Rwanda is a good country, with a healthy Tutsi dictatorship.

You mean in places with highest human rights violation? Like uyghur people in China and non-Muslims in Ariabia?

 

[Henri Christophe]

You mean in places with highest human rights violation? Like uyghur people in China and non-Muslims in Ariabia?

You speak as USA don't violate humans rigth too. The Guantanamo bay still a shame to humanity.
Uyghurs are treated from China as USA treated Native Americans, I don't see any difference.

Have you done a popular poll of the common people in a context where they can speak freely of these two countries to discern that things are, "fine." And Kagame's dictatorship versus Habyaramana's is mostly better economically and in lack of gratuitous bloodshed - not much else.

I have some chinese friends and of course I ask what they think about governement. And astonish or not, they are fine with Chinese governement.
China is by far the best example where democracy is not needed.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

You speak as USA don't violate humans rigth too. The Guantanamo bay still a shame to humanity.
Uyghurs are treated from China as USA treated Native Americans, I don't see any difference.

the main difference is that US have moved on for most of time and now tries not to voliate human right. And if they do you know what Americans do? they CALL THEIR GOVERNMENT OUT! Like how they called out Lyndon B. Johnson when he continued vietnam war in 1960's. Now can Chinese people call out their governments for their wrong doings?

My favorite example how dangerous democracy can be is in Rwanda, where have a majority of the population Hutu, but was historicaly ruled by Tutsi. When starts the Democracy in Rwanda it also start a genocide against Tutsi population and this genocide just stop when a Tutsi leader start a dictatorship. Now Rwanda is a good country, with a healthy Tutsi dictatorship.

dictatorship in Rwandia is kinda like Russia in early 2000's- it has a leader who have improved economy through dicatorship. And now look at Russia now. In 2000's Russian people thought Putin was "good dictator" since he improved Russian economy that former president yeltsin left in ruins. And look at Putin now.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I have some chinese friends and of course I ask what they think about governement. And astonish or not, they are fine with Chinese governement.
China is by far the best example where democracy is not needed.

are they Chinese people living in USA or Chinese people in China. If it is former... of cause they will they it is ok... they won't say their government is bad when big brother is watching you. If N.Korean people in N.Korea say Kim Jung Un is a saint and god from heaven... dose that make N.Korea a paradise? Remember China is basically fatter and richer N.Korea

 

[Henri Christophe]

the main difference is that US have moved on for most of time and now tries not to voliate human right. And if they do you know what Americans do? they CALL THEIR GOVERNMENT OUT! Like how they called out Lyndon B. Johnson when he continued vietnam war in 1960's. Now can Chinese people call out their governments for their wrong doings?

there is also protest in China

That is not so comun because the governement is just doing fine

dictatorship in Rwandia is kinda like Russia in early 2000's- it has a leader who have improved economy through dicatorship. And now look at Russia now. In 2000's Russian people thought Putin was "good dictator" since he improved Russian economy that former president yeltsin left in ruins. And look at Putin now.

Rwanda dictatorship isn't as Russia, Rwanda is just a small country that not invades other countries meanwhile Russia is the biggest country on Earth.
Russia economy is bad now because internactional sanctions because of the war of Ukraine, but inside Russia Putin made a good job and that is the why he still in the power, he was elected and reelected. Russia is a democracy too.

are they Chinese people living in USA or Chinese people in China. If it is former... of cause they will they it is ok... they won't say their government is bad when big brother is watching you. If N.Korean people in N.Korea say Kim Jung Un is a saint and god from heaven... dose that make N.Korea a paradise? Remember China is basically fatter and richer N.Korea

My chinese friends are chinese living in Brazil. There is no Big Brother watching they here.
North Korea is other country going just fine, but N.Korea need to produce Atomic Bombs to protect it self of USA who wants to bring democracy everywhere. Now we have a danger of atomic conflit because the USA, the real evil of the Earth.

 

[Patine]

there is also protest in China

That is not so comun because the governement is just doing fine

Maybe the fact the PRC Government actually ran tanks down at protesters in 1989 and suffered no consequences for it is what frightens them against such protests or displays. Not necessarily because things are, "just fine."

Rwanda dictatorship isn't as Russia, Rwanda is just a small country that not invades other countries meanwhile Russia is the biggest country on Earth.
Russia economy is bad now because internactional sanctions because of the war of Ukraine, but inside Russia Putin made a good job and that is the why he still in the power, he was elected and reelected. Russia is a democracy too.

Well, not since the two Congo Wars, I guess. Though those weren't THAT long ago. But then, eight African nations had troops invading and mucking about in Zaire going on into the DRC, at the time. But that didn't excuse Rwanda's role in the affair, and the horrible militias (among many other horrible militias) of Rwandans - both Hutu and Tutsi - who stayed behind and did of unspeakable things, but have not forgotten the home country.

North Korea is other country going just fine,

Starvation, slave labour, sexual predatory abuse, conscription into a military with horrible conditions, mandatory, "sincerity," at public events (or else), imaginative forms of capital punishment, and a dynastic cult state reminiscent of Ancient Egypt or Inca (but far wonkier and more debauched - more like Caligula) is NOT doing, "just fine," by any sane reckoning.

but N.Korea need to produce Atomic Bombs to protect it self of USA who wants to bring democracy everywhere. Now we have a danger of atomic conflit because the USA, the real evil of the Earth.

This sounds like Neo-Manichaean thinking - a current of thought that IS a true evil, and a ruinous and destructive way of viewing things. I highly suggest you disabuse yourself of this form of world view - as so very many others in the modern world SHOULD.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

That is not so comun because the governement is just doing fine

Yeah fine.. as long as you don't disagree with CCP... remember tiananmen square?

Russia is a democracy too.

Not really. Putin is a dictator and Russia is under dictatorship. The election is notthing but a scam.

My chinese friends are chinese living in Brazil. There is no Big Brother watching they here.

Most overseas Chinese people HATE CCP.
Like her for example.

She is Chinese-American and in her review of Mullan 2020 she shows strong disdain towards CCP.

North Korea is other country going just fine

And Somalia is doing fine. No pirates and wars going on there... no siree.
( are you insane????)