Historical Myths II

[Plotinus]

This thread is a continuation of the original.

From the original OP: What are some known historical myths or exaggerations that a lot of people somehow still believe are fact?

 

[Tee Kay]

Myth: Hungary was ever part of the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[GamezRule]

Myth: The Holy Roman Empire was a successor to the West Roman Empire.

 

[Tee Kay]

Myth: the Holy Roman Empire had a leading member-state (though a case may be made for the Habsburg Monarchy)

 

[LightSpectra]

Myth: The Holy Roman Empire was a successor to the West Roman Empire.

Depends on what you mean by "successor."

Myth: the Holy Roman Empire had a leading member-state (though a case may be made for the Habsburg Monarchy)

That varied by time period. There was an era when "Duke of Saxony" was a more prestigious title than "Emperor", because Saxony was the leading member-state.

 

[Tahuti]

From the former thread

How Nazis defined (and neo-Nazis define) "Aryan" is bizarrely complicated. I can't really explain it, but it's politicized in such a way that it's not merely white supremacism; since their definition of "Aryan" included the Japanese.

Well, the definition of Aryan differed even among the Nazis themselves. Rosenberg (and most of today's Neo-Nazis) viewed the Slavs as Aryans, but Hitler didn't.

Indo-European speaking Gypsies were considered as inferior as Jews, and likewise French and Armenians were viewed with extreme suspicion by the Nazis, despite speaking an IE language as well.
Conversely, the Nazis deemed Japanese and Turkic peoples (including Karaite Jews!) to be securely Aryan.

Japanese were a special case though, as they were "honorary" Aryans: These were biologically non-Aryan by heritage but were according to the Nazis fit to walk alongside those who were due to what they have accomplished.

 

[Yoda Power]

Myth: The Holy Roman Empire was a successor to the West Roman Empire.

How do you define succesor?

If not the HRE, then who?

 

[GamezRule]

The Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the ERE. The HRE was not a continuation of the WRE.

The Byzantine Empire basically was the East Roman Empire.

 

[Ajidica]

The Byzantine Empire is the ERE. The name change is purely superficial (even the Roman to ERE change).

 

[aelf]

About the notion of Aryan superiority, I'd argue that it's actually built into the common psyche of people today. There's still the widespread notion that white people, as a more generic category, is superior in some way or other. If it's not because they are plainly more intelligent, it's because they have some trait or other that makes them more successful, such as 'leadership'. Of course, I'd say that the difference is cultural more than anything, meaning it's to a large extent built on such perceptions and biases, i.e. because people perceive white people to be superior in some way, they tend to be more willing to give higher positions to white people, which is then taken as a confirmation that white people tend to be more successful for whatever perceived trait.

 

[Tahuti]

The Byzantine Empire is the ERE. The name change is purely superficial (even the Roman to ERE change).

Problem is, what is Roman? You could say the Byzantines were Greek instead of Roman. The Turks considered the Ottoman Empire to be a successor of the Roman Empire. The Russians considered the Russian Empire to be the successor of the Byzies (as the Moscovite monarchs who would later rule all of Russia were the closest related to the Byzantine royals).

Aelf: Well, Jews and Asians score the highest on US IQ tests, then followed by Whites who are themselves distantly followed by Hispanics and Blacks.
There are discrepencies that can't be ignored, but I agree with you that these are mostly environmental, not biological.

 

[GamezRule]

The Byzantine Empire is the ERE. The name change is purely superficial (even the Roman to ERE change).

This is the point I failed at making.

 

[say1988]

The Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the ERE. The HRE was not a continuation of the WRE.

Successor does not necessarily mean continuation.

Problem is, what is Roman? You could say the Byzantines were Greek instead of Roman. The Turks considered the Ottoman Empire to be a successor of the Roman Empire. The Russians considered the Russian Empire to be the successor of the Byzies (as the Moscovite monarchs who would later rule all of Russia were the closest related to the Byzantine royals)..

But there is a very large difference in this situation. the Byzantine Empire was the Eastern Roman Empire. There was a gradual culture change in the ERE. There was no conquest or significant, dramatic changes. It wasn't "we hold the city where the capital was" it was a "we are an unbroken continuation of the government"

 

[aelf]

Aelf: Well, Jews and Asians score the highest on US IQ tests, then followed by Whites who are themselves distantly followed by Hispanics and Blacks.
There are discrepencies that can't be ignored, but I agree with you that these are mostly environmental, not biological.

Actually, my point is such measures of intelligence are increasingly being sidelined by those who subscribe to a cultural notion of white superiority. Instead, what are being emphasised are other traits that are perceived to be important for success in the 'new economy', such as 'leadership' and 'soft' or 'people skills' that white people are allegedly better at (or at least better at while still having the requisite intelligence to be successful). I think this is a very widespread notion that is simultaneously acknowledged, through systematic biases built into decision-making processes, and not, through a general theoretical and political denial of it.

 

[GinandTonic]

"Unbroken continuation of the government" does seem something of a stretch. I understood one of the causes of the weakening of the Byzantine Empire was the number of coups and endless infighting around the rather unstable continuation of any government.

 

[W|M]

Myth: The only major battles in WWII where the Soviets fought were Stalingrad, Kursk and Berlin.

 

[gangleri2001]

The Black Legend.

 

[Little Faith]

You occasionally still hear someone claiming the ancient Icelandic Althing was an early democratic institution.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

The Russian Empire is a successor to the Byzies.
The first Tzar married a neice of teh last emperor.

 

[GinandTonic]

You occasionally still hear someone claiming the ancient Icelandic Althing was an early democratic institution.

Only a myth in so far as the first English Parliaments being democratic, or the first American congresses being democratic.

At what point of suffrage does democracy magically enter the mechanism? Spain and the UK could both claim to have very much wider suffrage than the US does today so is the US not a democracy? Or are one of the differing but wider standards of the UK or Spain right and the other wrong and so only one is a true democracy?

Bloody subjective business when you start throwing about absolutes to describe inherently subjective judgements.