History questions not worth their own thread II

[Tee Kay]

Ofcourse I did. O wait, I said they suceeded in maintaining their rule...

So we're in agreement.

Tibetans too? Turks? I thought we were talking Chinese only. AFAIK the practice was limited to the them. I´m not using any obscure source, BTW. If you´re actually interested in the subject, I suggest reading a handbook on either China or Manchu that covers the matter.

If you are claiming that the queue order was only imposed on the Chinese, then I'd like some sources please.

Edit: you're right that it never seem to have been applied to Tibetans or Uyghurs.

 

[Dachs]

Yes, let´s forget everything that preceded the final overthrow of the Manchus...

Isn't the final overthrow the thing that actually matters, though?

That´s one interpretation. I didn´t claim they didn´t try, just that they failed. (And the Nationalists in turn failed.) Again, I didn´t claim they didn´t modernize.

Sure, that's fine. I'm not exactly clear as to why you think I was arguing with you, as though I have nothing else to do on this board than respond to things that you post. Just adding on and discussing what Lord Baal was saying.

 

[Atticus]

Why do animals so often stick their tongues out in coats of arms?

 

[GoodGame]

Defiance?

 

[Lord Baal]

Yes, let´s forget everything that preceded the final overthrow of the Manchus...

I didn't. But the Manchu dynasty's final downfall came as a result of a military mutiny with the assisrance of a popular revolt. That had nothing to do with European encroachment. In fact, the Vhing had been doing an excellent job of pushing back the Europeans since the disaster of the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.

 

[Agent327]

Fair enough.

... er, what. I'm not sure how that is relevant to Manchu attempts to keep ethnic Han on the right side of the willow palisade. But whatever, I'd like to see this citation and some sort of attempt to tie this to something.

Didn´t use a citation, just checked some facts in a taxtbook on East Asian history. (I´d quote it, but it´s not up to date.) I´d link to a site, but a quicksearch on the web gave unsatisfactory replies. Hence: check a handbook. BTW, the Willow Palissade was actually meant to prevent further Chinese immigration into Manchuria. (Bit odd, as it only consisted of a ditch. But I suspect that if you were Chinese and were found beyond it, you were in trouble.) Anywho, the tidbit you´re quoting doesn´t refer to Chinese-Manchurian immigration. Still waiting for specifics on the queue being introduced to Mongolia BTW.

If you are claiming that the queue order was only imposed on the Chinese, then I'd like some sources please.

Edit: you're right that it never seem to have been applied to Tibetans or Uyghurs.

Good. As it was your own claim, not mine. (Not that it was incorrect, I didn´t contest it, ´s all. As Masada mentioned, the custom originated when the Manchu vassalized the - Eastern - Mongols.)

Isn't the final overthrow the thing that actually matters, though?

Sure, that's fine. I'm not exactly clear as to why you think I was arguing with you, as though I have nothing else to do on this board than respond to things that you post. Just adding on and discussing what Lord Baal was saying.

As was I. (And I´m sure you know, as an avid student of history, that major events seldomly have singular causes.)

 

[Masada]

Didn´t use a citation, just checked some facts in a taxtbook on East Asian history. (I´d quote it, but it´s not up to date.) I´d link to a site, but a quicksearch on the web gave unsatisfactory replies. Hence: check a handbook.

tl;dr: I have no source.

BTW, the Willow Palissade was actually meant to prevent further Chinese immigration into Manchuria. (Bit odd, as it only consisted of a ditch. But I suspect that if you were Chinese and were found beyond it, you were in trouble.)

tl;dr:

Anywho, the tidbit you´re quoting doesn´t refer to Chinese-Manchurian immigration. Still waiting for specifics on the queue being introduced to Mongolia BTW.

tl;dr: I still have no source.

 

[innonimatu]

Did the Decemberists really think they would succeded? I mean really? Of 9,000 troops stationed in St. Peterburg they only managed to get 3,000 and of those 3,000 many thought they were supporting Constantine against a coup by Nicholas not a Decemberist rising. In their testimony after being put on trial by Nicholas the key officers mention things like George Washington and government existing for the people, and the betrayal of Alexander and emancipation of serfs, and a constitution and republican government etc.... and I'm pretty sure the whole lot of them were flighty idealists with no notion of reality. And even if they took St. Peterburg and arrested Nicholas, did they think Constantine and his army in Poland would just sit there?

I don't know, revolutions create many possibilities. The outcome can depend more on the determination and boldness of the participants (in particular, its leaders) than on numbers. If the initial coup "beheads" the opposition, general confusion can make those who hold the capital victors. If they use that position to enact new laws immediately and those are popular, they create interests in maintaining the new status quo.
Could they have captured Nicholas, instead of starting by just staging a political protest? If they managed to secure the capital and announced the abolition of serfdom, could it be reinstalled without civil war? Would Constantine risk that, or instead take the crown, protecting the immediate family interests even if it meant compromising with a constitution?

Most successful revolutions could have been just a historic footnote about a failed, obscure revolt which was quickly crushed, had the government reacted strongly, or the leaders of the revolt hesitated. Consider the different outcomes of the French Revolution and the Paris Commune. One decapitated (quite literally, in the end) the government, the other failed to move against it when it could have.

 

[Agent327]

tl;dr: I have no source. <snip> tl;dr: <snip> tl;dr: I still have no source.

Try googling. I did find references for Manchu. For China there should be a ton.

 

[Masada]

Try googling. I did find references for Manchu. For China there should be a ton.

tl;dr: I have no source.

 

[Atticus]

Is there some relation between the names of Thebes in Greece and Egypt?

My best guess so far is that the Egyptian Thebes sounds somewhat like Thebes in Greek, and thus was greekicized (cf. "anglicized") as Thebes, and that name stuck. If this should be the case, is there any knowledge on how much the name sounded like the Greek Thebes.

Umm.. to make my (completely drawn out of hat) hypothesis more clear: It would be the same, if German civilisation died, and the town Köln would be known as Cologne 2000 years from now.

 

[say1988]

I would initially guess that after Alexander's conquest, a group of Greeks brought in started calling the city after their city back home (just like the many Alexandrias or cities in the New World). Probably wrong, but my instinct would point to that.

 

[Dachs]

It's mostly coincidental; Thebai is the Greek form of the Coptic word for "Karnak Temple".

 

[Atticus]

Thanks!

I assume then that the Greek city name "Thebes" didn't mean anything then. Or at least it didn't mean Karnak Temple.

 

[Dachs]

Well, Thebai is plural for something, but we don't really know what, AFAIK. It comes from the name of the site during the Helladic era, during the period of use of Mykenaian Greek.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Anyone have any ideas for a Master's thesis? Because everything I've come up with is more a PhD topic.

Incidentally, I'm still trying to figure out how I ended up required to come up with a prospectus when I still haven't finished undergrad.

 

[Dachs]

Uh, do you have an area in mind?

 

[ParkCungHee]

Honestly? No. I have access to the country's best military archive though, and not much for non-military history.
Maybe something involving WWI.

 

[Dachs]

I wonder how many people have done MAs on the stuff during the Pancho Villa expedition.

 

[Agent327]

tl;dr: I have no source.

You don´t have Google? Or you don´t have a source period? I´m sorry, I´m a bit at a loss here...

Is there some relation between the names of Thebes in Greece and Egypt?

My best guess so far is that the Egyptian Thebes sounds somewhat like Thebes in Greek, and thus was greekicized (cf. "anglicized") as Thebes, and that name stuck. If this should be the case, is there any knowledge on how much the name sounded like the Greek Thebes.

Umm.. to make my (completely drawn out of hat) hypothesis more clear: It would be the same, if German civilisation died, and the town Köln would be known as Cologne 2000 years from now.

Not really: bot Cologne and Köln derive from the original Latin name for the city Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium.

"greekicized" doesn´t confer with "anglicized", BTW; hellenized does.