History questions not worth their own thread III

[vogtmurr]

Dachs is right, and iirc he mentioned that the chariots were used by the richer warriors, and used primarily as a means of getting TO the battlefield. I don't believe he says anything about them being used while ON the battlefield.

He actually gave a quite detailed description of how they were used - in both of his invasions of Britain. I guess the Celts had 'war carts' in France too.

 

[Dachs]

Does anyone know all the names that were used for Constantinople, in the original language?

What, legally, or colloquially? Are you including things like "Tsargrad", which is what the Russians called it, despite never actually controlling the place, or "Miklagarðr" (same thing, but for the Norse)? Cause, I mean, outside of "Byzantion", "Istanbul", and whatever Septimius Severus called it, I don't think the place really had a whole lot of legal, official names. Most of the names are colloquial ones.

The ones I can think of off the top of my head are Byzantion (Greek colony), Lygos (Thraco-Greek settlement), Augusta Severina/Augusta Antonina/whatever (Septimius), Roma Constantinopolitana/Nova Roma/Deutera Rome (colloquial, fourth century), Constantinopolis/Konstantinoupolis/Kostantiniyye/Kustantiniyyah (colloquial, Byzantine-era - Latin, Greek, Turkish, Arabic; I'm sure there's a Farsi version but I dunno Farsi), Istanbul/Islambol/Stamboul (colloquial, late-Byzantine and Ottoman, later official), Tsargrad (Russian), and Miklagarðr (Norse).

I know that Byzantion, Konstantinopolis, Konstantinoupoli, Nova Roma and Istanbul have all been used, but I don't know about other names.

Nova Roma was a colloquial expression for the city; more common would have been Roma Constantinopolitana (insofar as anybody referred to it in Latin). There's no good evidence that it was actually renamed "Nova Roma".

Well, it started life as Byzantion, a Greek trading colony, which probably became Byzantium under Roman administration (but I'm sure Dachs can correct me there), and which of course was used by Emperor Constantine from which to rule the reunited Roman Empire. I think it only became Istanbul in 1918 or so.

Romans would have called it Byzantium, but they didn't go about legally renaming every city they controlled - insofar as one can talk about legal names of a city when the only real reference to most of them is coinage, and the Roman-controlled Greek East always coined in Greek. The people who lived there continued to call it Byzantion under Roman rule. I think Septimius Severus gave the city a Roman colonial name that basically nobody used after his death, but it wasn't "Byzantium" (something like Augusta Severina or Augusta Antonina IIRC).

Istanbul of course comes from the Greek expression "eis ten polis", which is "to the city" (or "in the city"), widely used from the Makedonian dynastic era onward; more often than not, Greeks would simply call it "the City" instead of referring to an actual name. Like with most Greek cities' names, the name was slightly rejiggered to make more sense in Turkish and then used by the Ottomans and other Turks.

 

[ParkCungHee]

What, legally, or colloquially? Are you including things like "Tsargrad", which is what the Russians called it, despite never actually controlling the place, or "Miklagarðr" (same thing, but for the Norse)? Cause, I mean, outside of "Byzantion", "Istanbul", and whatever Septimius Severus called it, I don't think the place really had a whole lot of legal, official names. Most of the names are colloquial ones.

I meant officially, by the people who owned it.

 

[Lord Baal]

Did the Crusaders rename it at all?

 

[LightSpectra]

This is in the Wikipedia article for Vespasian, unsourced:

In modern Romance languages, urinals are still named after him (for example, vespasiano in Italian, and vespasienne in French[36]) probably in reference to a tax he placed on urine collection (useful due to its ammoniac content; see Pay toilet).

Any truth to that?

 

[Dachs]

From Suetonius' Life of Vespasianus:

When Titus found fault with him for contriving a tax upon public conveniences, he held a piece of money from the first payment to his son's nose, asking whether its odor was offensive to him. When Titus said "No," he replied, "Yet it comes from urine."

 

[Atticus]

That's the origin of the saying "pecunia non olet", "money doesn't stink", I've heard.

 

[Leoreth]

Isn't all the talk about "renaming" in pre-modern times rather meaningless anyway, since there was no concept for official names?

I'd say a Venetian merchant would've called Konstantinoupolis Constantinopoli both before and after the fourth crusade.

 

[Dreadnought]

I have a question:

I was watching The Patriot last weekend, and one part peeked my interest. It was the scene with Cornwallis and Tavington are discussing the means to win the war in the south. Cornwallis states there will be a "landed aristocracy" as the new hierarchy in North America, speaking specifically how the western lands (Ohio) will be divided amongst a few rich families. Does this have any semblance of historic accuracy?

 

[Hornblower]

Ah yes I've always wondered if that was a plot device to make the Brits seem more 'evil and imperial' or if indeed there were plans to 'land' some more gentry. I'd say that some of the wealthier sympathisers certainly wouldn't have been overly upset by the concept but then again I guess they would have been a minority.
I've only recently seen part an HBO series 'John Adams' that mentioned that for a brief period the new assembly (congress?) were considering creating their own monarchy but eventually set upon President as a more appropriate leadership model for the new country.

 

[bombshoo]

What happened to the remaining part of the Austro-Hungarian Navy after WWI? Was it scrapped? Confiscated by Italy?

 

[Kraznaya]

I have a question:

I was watching The Patriot last weekend, and one part peeked my interest. It was the scene with Cornwallis and Tavington are discussing the means to win the war in the south. Cornwallis states there will be a "landed aristocracy" as the new hierarchy in North America, speaking specifically how the western lands (Ohio) will be divided amongst a few rich families. Does this have any semblance of historic accuracy?

Goddamn the blue blooded Indians

 

[Dachs]

What happened to the remaining part of the Austro-Hungarian Navy after WWI? Was it scrapped? Confiscated by Italy?

Ceded to the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes by Karl I. At least one vessel commandeered by France, several others destroyed by Italy in disregard for theoretical Yugoslav possession.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Moar like "Due to theoretical Yugoslav Possession."

 

[Dachs]

Indeed.

 

[bombshoo]

Ceded to the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes by Karl I. At least one vessel commandeered by France, several others destroyed by Italy in disregard for theoretical Yugoslav possession.

Interesting. I had read that Italy was moderately concerned about Yugoslavia being a naval threat in the Adriatic, though I never connected the dots that they inherited parts of the Austro-Hungarian fleet. That makes their concerns make a lot more sense. So I assume it wasn't ceded through Saint-Germain-en-Laye since Italy seemed not to approve.

Did Serbia even actually have a say in that peace, or did they have a separate peace? Never thought much on it. I know Yugoslavia was created out of it, but I can't recall anything on them having much influence in the peace talks, which seems odd considering a definite middle power was created as a result.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Interesting. I had read that Italy was moderately concerned about Yugoslavia being a naval threat in the Adriatic, though I never connected the dots that they inherited parts of the Austro-Hungarian fleet. That makes their concerns make a lot more sense. So I assume it wasn't ceded through Saint-Germain-en-Laye since Italy seemed not to approve.

Also, their experience in the First World War indicated that a good fleet was not all that important for operations in the Adriatic. Relatively small vessels could inflict tremendous damage (in their experience) because of the small sea, and the many isles and straights.

 

[Sonereal]

I keep having an argument with another poster regarding the Cuban Missile Crisis so I'll post the question here.

What would've happened if the United States invaded Cuba during the CMC?

 

[Lord of Elves]

I keep having an argument with another poster regarding the Cuban Missile Crisis so I'll post the question here.

What would've happened if the United States invaded Cuba during the CMC?

Does the Bay of Pigs count as a real invasion in this context?

 

[Hornblower]

I think that the result of the Bay of Pigs is a good enough example that the resolve of the Presidency was such that there was no chance of an official US invasion.
If you want to play wotif? then I'd say that because no shooting/sinkings occurred during the Naval Blockade then the resolve of the CCCP was equally standoff-ish (is that a word?). Nobody wanted to start a war so I don't think that there would have been much beyond mock outrage from the CCCP. There would be a bit of shooting from the locals and a lot of very upset Cubans to contend with but not much beyond that.....
that is my $0.02 worth anyway.