History questions not worth their own thread IV

[GamezRule]

Bataan and, to a certain extent, Bastogne.

When did the United States lose at Bastogne? Pearl Harbor is the lost battle we usually glorify.

 

[ParkCungHee]

The opening days. That's the usual part that gets emphasized, from what I see.

There's a lot more stories about frost-bite and being overrun and outgunned by Panzer divisions than bombing campaigns and counter offensives.

 

[ace99]

The way I've always seen Bastongne is more of an example of the tenacity and resilience of US soldiers who held the line.

 

[JohannaK]

I don't know about you, but I don't celebrate the fall of Barcelona. I celebrate the resistance of Barcelona. Black flag forever!

A strange thing to celebrate... it's a bit like what the Serbs have with Kosovo Polje, I guess.

We do not celebrate, we remember! Well, we do somehow celebrate the resistance that the citizens put against the francohispanic army at its gates. Barely a couple thousand regulars, plus the city militia structured in guilds. Less than 10,000 people faced an army of around 40,000 and stood for more than a year.

But the precise date is a day of remembrance. Of the remembrance of our loss and subjugation, to never forget. Tragedies build more of a national spirit than an heroic victory, it seems. Look at Gallipoli

 

[gangleri2001]

Black flag forever!

I like this Iwo Jima style black flag with soldiers of the period.

 

[ace99]

I like this one better:

 

[JohannaK]

Black flag forever!

I like this Iwo Jima style black flag with soldiers of the period.

Hey, that one is from that 11/9/1714 comic! I have that comic!

 

[Domen]

The way I've always seen Bastongne is more of an example of the tenacity and resilience of US soldiers who held the line.

Yes Bastogne was an example of very fierce resistance, especially when contrasted by rather quick collapse of the US 106th Infantry Division (which suffered ca. 800 killed and wounded and ca. 7000 captured - having two of its regiments - 422nd and 423rd - totally annihilated) in period 16 - 19 December.

And to sugar this serious defeat, Ambrose ("Citizen Soldiers") made up a patriotic story about one heroic platoon of the 106th Division resisting against supposedly entire regiment of German paratroopers on 16 December, suffering only 1 dead and killing at least 300 Germans in the process.

Just imagine this romantic story - one heroic platoon killing piles of elite German paratroopers, while the rest of the US division is surrendering around it.

The fact that one US platoon for some time managed to hamper an advance of a German battalion, indeed took place (which in itself is a great achievement). Ambrose, however, seriously embroidered this story. Originally it was mentioned by John Eisenhower's "Bitter woods" (but he doesn't write about 300 dead Germans - and he writes that this platoon managed to hamper an advance of one German battalion - rather than entire regiment - for some time).

And when it comes to German losses - entire 9th Fallshirmjager-Regiment (not just one of its battalions) lost 68 dead and wounded on that day.

A platoon holding off a battalion for even one hour - is still an achievement in itself. No need to make up additional stories about 300 dead Germans.

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This is a good example how various true wartime events (a US platoon hampering an advance of a German battalion for perhaps around one hour, inflicting a few casualties on those Germans and suffering 1 dead and perhaps a few wounded in the process) turn into legendary stories (an epic tale about one platoon of US super heroes killing hundreds of Germans and injuring thousands, slaughtering a regiment of elite paratroopers, while only 1 of them dies).

A good example on how various accounts of wartime bravery are being blown up to often ridiculous degree.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

A strange thing to celebrate... it's a bit like what the Serbs have with Kosovo Polje, I guess.

I seriously never understood that. They really CELEBRATE defeat and being conquered by the Ottomans.

 

[Flying Pig]

A bit like the Greeks with Thermopylae,the British with Dunkirk, or the Parachute Regiment with Arnhem, really.

 

[Bowsling]

Dieppe is definitely not celebrated nearly as much as Vimy Ridge, though.

 

[sophie]

The way I've always seen Bastongne is more of an example of the tenacity and resilience of US soldiers who held the line.

Link to video.

 

[Domen]

A bit like the Greeks with Thermopylae,the British with Dunkirk, or the Parachute Regiment with Arnhem, really.

Well as a matter of fact each of these stories was embelished into patriotic legends.

So was for example the Polish Westerplatte.

Or the American Alamo.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

But you guys dont get drunk and go partying? People tend to forget that the Kingdom of Bosnia was also present at the battle, supporting their allies (the Serbs) since at the time Bosnia was stronger of the two and dominated the Serb Principality. But we didn't loose our nobility, king and get occupied. That happened to us in 1463....most people resent that date here and its nothing to be celebrated.

 

[Flying Pig]

Well as a matter of fact each of these stories was embelished into patriotic legends.

So was for example the Polish Westerplatte.

Or the American Alamo.

Indeed, but none of those legends tend to involve actually winning, although the mechanics of the defeat are often played down (everyone knows that John Frost held back two divisions at Pegasus Bridge, nobody remembers that he went to Colditz immediately afterwards)

 

[gangleri2001]

I like this one better:

CNT FAI = scum

 

[JohannaK]

Scum of the worst kind, really.

 

[gangleri2001]

No, that's lerrouxists and neo-lerrouxists.

 

[JohannaK]

I forgot about those.
but they're pretty close. Jeez, just thinking how Lerroux could get into the government.... jeez, it's so facepalm-worthy.

 

[Domen]

Indeed, but none of those legends tend to involve actually winning, although the mechanics of the defeat are often played down (everyone knows that John Frost held back two divisions at Pegasus Bridge, nobody remembers that he went to Colditz immediately afterwards)

True.

Regarding the Westerplatte - during the war there was a rumour that all defenders died (there was even such a wartime poem describing how: "They went straight to heaven in a coach-and-four*, the soldiers of Westerplatte"). Of course this was not the case in reality. And later, during the last 70 years, the battle was researched so thoroughly that you could probably make a map of Europe with birthplace of each defender of WTT marked on it. Vast majority of surnames of the defenders and biograms of majority of them are known. The last of known defenders (and nearly all of them are known) died on 5 August 2012, aged 94.

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Edit:

*But I'm not sure if this translation (I found it on the net) is correct. A coach-and-four is apparently a type of a horse-drawn carriage.

And the original Polish text says they went to heaven "czwórkami" - which means: four men at a time, foursome after foursome.

So I guess translating this as "in a coach-and-four" is wrong (unless this is also some English idiom which means "four at a time").