History questions not worth their own thread V

[Dachs]

I see..

while those who come as his helper and loyal disciple also Jews at that time.

I think if the Roman Christian decide to blaming themselves for the event maybe it will have an interesting result.

And many academics have made the argument that those scenes were inserted into the Bible precisely to attract gentiles, especially Romans, to Christianity, by making it "not the Romans' fault".

 

[H4run]

And many academics have made the argument that those scenes were inserted into the Bible precisely to attract gentiles, especially Romans, to Christianity, by making it "not the Romans' fault".

this is I don't know, but that just interesting, I also wonder when Christianity start to not grow within the Jew community but it grow more between the Roman and later to other European, then from Anatolia it grow within the early Turkish peoples, as I recall the wife of Hulaghu was a Turkish Christian.

 

[Lord Baal]

Best I can found in 10 seconds of google is:

Which suggests Polish(-Lithuanian) Jews might account for ~75% of Jews in Europe, but less than half in the world. Define Europe

That I find very believable, and is pretty much what my own reading has led me to believe. Of course, it's pretty hard to count all the Jews in the Caucasus and Volga regions.

 

[Plotinus]

this is I don't know, but that just interesting, I also wonder when Christianity start to not grow within the Jew community but it grow more between the Roman and later to other European, then from Anatolia it grow within the early Turkish peoples, as I recall the wife of Hulaghu was a Turkish Christian.

No-one knows. Some people think that Christianity became a mostly non-Jewish religion very quickly - within the first couple of generations - while others think that it remained a mostly Jewish religion for a very long time, at least until the time of Constantine. As usual, I imagine the truth is somewhere in between.

 

[Domen]

the Nazi party? (...) were they socialist in name only?

Guess who said this in his speech on 1 May 1927:

"(...) We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions. (...)"

The answer is: Adolf Hitler

As a side note:

Hitler indeed preferred a different kind of evaulation of a human being than the unseemly one based on wealth and property...

 

[Domen]

When it comes to your questions regarding my previous post.

Here is the source for the statement that 80% of global Jewish population lived in Poland:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Poland.html

Quotation:

"By the mid-16th century, eighty percent of the world’s Jews lived in Poland."

They can be wrong of course (but this website is "A Project of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise", not a Polish website glorifying Polish history).

According to a reliable Polish source - a book by Cezary Kukło, "Demografia Rzeczypospolitej Przedrozbiorowej" ("Demography of the Rzeczypospolita Before the Partitions") the number of Jewish population in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (i.e. Rzeczypospolita) was around:

- in 1578 - 150,000
- in 1648 - 450,000
- in 1675 - 350,000 (after the 25 - 30 years of wars and epidemic diseases that followed)
- in 1765 - 700,000 (500,000 in the Crown of Poland and 200,000 in the Grand Duchy of Litva)

Before the 2nd Partition (ca. year 1790), Jews were around 10% of population of the Commonwealth (Rzeczypospolita).

Now we need to find estimations of global Jewish population and simply compare the numbers.

=======================================

And here such a video about the history of Jews in Poland:


Link to video.

 

[Domen]

but according to a census at the First Partition of Poland in 1772, the Jews of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth numbered 308,500.

No. This census was carried out not in Poland, but in partitioned areas of Poland - i.e. in areas taken away from Poland by Russia, Prussia and Austria.

So these are Jews who after 1772 lived in partitioned / occupied Poland, not in this part of Poland which remained independent.

As you can see above (data from C. Kukło), in 1765 (before the First Partition) there were 700,000 Jews in the Commonwealth (see above).

If 308,500 of them were taken away during the First Partition, then still 400,000 remained in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

 

[Lord Baal]

When it comes to your questions regarding my previous post.

Here is the source for the statement that 80% of global Jewish population lived in Poland:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Poland.html

Quotation:

"By the mid-16th century, eighty percent of the world’s Jews lived in Poland."

They can be wrong of course (but this website is "A Project of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise", not a Polish website glorifying Polish history).

According to a reliable Polish source - a book by Cezary Kukło, "Demografia Rzeczypospolitej Przedrozbiorowej" ("Demography of the Rzeczypospolita Before the Partitions") the number of Jewish population in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (i.e. Rzeczypospolita) was around:

- in 1578 - 150,000
- in 1648 - 450,000
- in 1675 - 350,000 (after the 25 - 30 years of wars and epidemic diseases that followed)
- in 1765 - 700,000 (500,000 in the Crown of Poland and 200,000 in the Grand Duchy of Litva)

Before the 2nd Partition (ca. year 1790), Jews were around 10% of population of the Commonwealth (Rzeczypospolita).

Now we need to find estimations of global Jewish population and simply compare the numbers.

=======================================

And here such a video about the history of Jews in Poland:


Link to video.

Thank you. But that's not the only part of your post that requires a citation.

 

[Flying Pig]

Guess who said this in his speech on 1 May 1927:

"(...) We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions. (...)"

The answer is: Adolf Hitler

As a side note:

Hitler indeed preferred a different kind of evaulation of a human being than the unseemly one based on wealth and property...

Hitler is a great example of the principle that a historian ought to be very careful when dealing with the words of politicians. He certainly spoke a lot of being the workers' man, but in terms of actual policy he didn't have a clear strategy and didn't care about much beyond the expansion of Germany. Although the Nazis did believe that the economy should be subordinate to the nation, they opposed both capitalism and communism; Hitler's economics should more be seen as placing himself (and therefore Germany's military and imperialistic goals) at the centre of the economy rather than the working people.

To demonstrate my first point, he flat-out lied about the extent of German re-armament in the run-up to the war: he said that the German government had spent 90 billion marks on armaments before the war, while the entire state spent only about this much from 19333 to 1938 - they actually spent something like 50 billion.

 

[Domen]

Hitler is a great example of the principle that a historian ought to be very careful when dealing with the words of politicians.

So is Stalin. And the Soviet Constitution of 1936. Those were basically empty words.

He certainly spoke a lot of being the workers' man, but in terms of actual policy he didn't have a clear strategy

So was Stalin - Stalin killed so many of his own countrymen, that he is for sure among the "Top 10" of people who killed most Russians ever.

And many Soviet workers were also among Stalin's victims.

Although the Nazis did believe that the economy should be subordinate to the nation, they opposed both capitalism and communism

That's why the Nazis called themselves "socialist" - rather than "communist" (because they opposed communism, but not socialism).

Hitler's economics should more be seen as placing himself (and therefore Germany's military and imperialistic goals) at the centre of the economy rather than the working people.

Stalin claimed that the Soviet Union was a country of "dictatorship of the people". But in fact it was dictatorship of Stalin, as we know.

=====================================

Thank you. But that's not the only part of your post that requires a citation.

Which other parts also require citation? The part about Pius XII - I already provided the source. That book of Pinchas Lapide from 1967.

However, I personally have not read that book - I have read in an article, that Pinchas Lapide wrote such a thing.

 

[Flying Pig]

Which is true of the original Soviet consitution as well, and totally beside the point.

 

[Lord Baal]

So is Stalin. And the Soviet Constitution of 1936. Those were basically empty words.



So was Stalin - Stalin killed so many of his own countrymen, that he is for sure among the "Top 10" of people who killed most Russians ever.

And many Soviet workers were also among Stalin's victims.



That's why the Nazis called themselves "socialist" - rather than "communist" (because they opposed communism, but not socialism).



Stalin claimed that the Soviet Union was a country of "dictatorship of the people". But in fact it was dictatorship of Stalin, as we know.

=====================================



Which other parts also require citation? The part about Pius XII - I already provided the source. That book of Pinchas Lapide from 1967.

However, I personally have not read that book - I have read in an article, that Pinchas Lapide wrote such a thing.

How about your claims about anti-Semitism in both Poland and Germany?

Why are you bringing up Stalin in response to Flying Pig's post?

 

[Domen]

In the post you quoted I had no claims about antisemitism in Germany or Poland.

I had claims about antisemitism in Germany and Poland one post before the one you quoted.

What exactly are you asking for, by the way ???

Why are you bringing up Stalin in response to Flying Pig's post?

To show that Stalin was pretty similar to Hitler as Flying Pig described him.

Which in turn makes this (as well as "The Soviet Story") two reliable documentaries:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXj8CrxDyoA

"World War II Behind Close Doors" is also confirming this - the fact that Stalin and Hitler had more in common than differences:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLi9fMTRsVw&list=PLBC97A55F04AE9FF8

Even though the little differences between them, eventually led to the conflict between them for domination over Europe.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That's why the Nazis called themselves "socialist" - rather than "communist" (because they opposed communism, but not socialism).

Then explain the Night of the Long Knives, and why SDP members found themselves in Concentration Camps the same as communists.

The Nazis called themselves socialists for rhetorical reasons. They were trying to steal working-class votes away from the SDP. Socialism was very popular in Germany at the time. It's just like how many American political parties have "freedom," "liberty," and "constitution" in their names: those are common buzzwords that are popular in the American political lexicon right now. What American today doesn't want to support liberty, freedom, or the Constitution? Likewise, what Germany in 1930 didn't want socialism of some sort? And these "socialists" were talking about solutions to the present government's calamities, about reclaiming German honor lost a Versailles...If they called themselves the Fascists, then they would be associating themselves with the present Italian government, and all the baggage that would entail (especially in Austria!!!). Not nearly as likely to make them popular.

 

[Flying Pig]

Essentially, what Cheezy said. The SPD dominated German politics from the end of the Bismarck era until the rise of Hitler; since the Nazis gained their main electoral success in the wake of the Wall Street Crash, it was hardly surprising that they would paint themselves as a workers' party.

 

[Domen]

and why SDP members found themselves in Concentration Camps the same as communists.

So Stalin did not imprison or murder his political opposition - only Hitler did ???

SPD members found themselves in camps only because they supported KPD against Hitler.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm not really sure where you've got the mythical poster arguing that Stalin was any better than Hitler from. Cheezy may be a Communist, but that doesn't mean that he agrees with everything done in the name of Communism

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

So Stalin did not imprison or murder his political opposition - only Hitler did ???

I wasn't aware that I, or anyone else, had said otherwise.

SPD members found themselves in camps only because they suppprted KPD against Hitler.

Actually they didn't. The KPD and SDP were forbidden from cooperating by the Comintern.

I'm not really sure where you've got the mythical poster arguing that Stalin was any better than Hitler from.

I would gladly argue such a point, but I am not in this thread, which is the mysterious part of his posts.

 

[Lord Baal]

Not only Germans - Gobineau was French, for example. Chamberlain was British, but lived in Germany.

And I was talking about racist (aka exterminationist, aka "scientific") antisemitism, not about antisemitism in general.

Regarding "Catholic religious antisemitism" - this has been blown out of proportion by Communist and anticlerical propaganda. Efforts of Pope Pius XII contributed to saving ca. 860,000 Jews during WW2 (as was proven by Jewish historian Pinchas Lapide in 1967) and even Prime Minister of Israel Golda Meir said "thank you" to Pius XII for this great achievement. However, all these facts did not become an obstacle for accusing Pius XII of antisemitism, of staying silent and supposedly not doing anything to save Jews, by the NKVD propaganda machine and by pupil of Soviet security services, Rolf Hochhuth, in 1963.

There were many examples of Catholic clergy and Catholic nuns saving Jews in occupied Poland during WW2. I can describe some if you want.

Jews were being hidden in monasteries of Catholic nuns during the German occupation - there were at least several such examples.

I know that such claims are shocking for some Westerners, who got brainwashed to think that all Catholics are BBVs (Bloody Bigoted Vampires).



According to what the New Testament says, Jesus himself wanted to get killed - so what is the problem and why does it matter who killed him? It was his plan to get himself killed by others and then to resurrect for the sins of humanity, according to Christian teachings. Am I right?

In the Middle Ages Jews from the rest of Europe were escaping to Poland, where they found protection by the Crown, nobility and the Parliament.

Also I don't think that Poland was the most Catholic country of all European countries in the Middle Ages.

Polish knights participated in the crusades against Muslims only in very small numbers - there were no massive expeditions like that of Richard I of England. Western European propaganda called the Poles "false Christians" after the battle of Grunwald in 1410. Poles were supporting the Czech Hussite heresy in the 15th century. In the 16th and 17th century Poland was the place of religious tolerance for various followers of the Protestant Reformation.

Up to 1/3 of Poland's population were Orthodox Christians already in 1360 (while in England or France of that time, ca. 100% were Catholics).

In the 16th century very large part of Polish nobility adopted Calvinism or Lutheranism during the Reformation.

By year 1650 around 80% of global Jewish population lived in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

There are numerous unsupported claims in this post. Please supprt them. You have since supported several, but far from all of the claims you make herein.

 

[Domen]

There are numerous unsupported claims in this post. Please supprt them. You have since supported several, but far from all of the claims you make herein.

Name them by quoting them (each separately) and assigning numbers to them.

For example Point 1 - "In the 16th century very large part of Polish nobility adopted Calvinism or Lutheranism during the Reformation."

Is this unsupported?

Point 2 - "Up to 1/3 of Poland's population were Orthodox Christians already in 1360".

Answer - at that time Poland annexed the Red Ruthenia, which had mostly Orthodox population.

Etc., etc.

=================================

About Catholic antisemitism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejny

http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Sejny/Sejny.html

http://www.sztetl.org.pl/en/city/sejny/

The Dominican Order helped the Jews build a synagogue in 1768

In this idyllic little town, which brings summer holidays to mind, a particularly large influx of Jews took place after 1770, when the Dominicans who then owned the town invited Jewish artisans to come in order to help the town to compete with neighbouring Krasnopol. To make the place more attractive, in 1778 the Dominicans built asynagogue (since replaced by the existing one).

The Dominican Order in Poland:

http://www.krakow2004.dominikanie.pl/provincemain.php