History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VI
- Thread starter Plotinus
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'Sir', 'ma'am' or 'Master Smith' for a servant to a master, and 'sir' and/or 'Mister Smith' to show respect. The latter was still current when I was young; if you were looking for work you'd say 'excuse me, Mr Jones sir, do you need another man?'
I dunno about Master. The title was usually only applied to males under 18 years of age. (There are other uses e.g. where you meet someone of indeterminate but likely higher rank, ship's captains and certain craftsmen of high skill). Sir, ma'am or Mister [Insert] &etc seem more likely.
Surely that is a German? ..
Sorry, that's my point - servants called adult men 'sir', adult women 'ma'am', boys 'master smith', and girls 'miss'. It's never used of a superior or as a term of respect, unless it's actually the person's title - that is, the master of a university college or something similar - in which case the address is 'Master' or 'Professor/Doctor/Mr Smith'. The commanding officer of a ship in the Royal Navy is always 'Captain', whether or not they actually hold the naval rank of captain, so Army or marine officers holding the (lower) rank of captain are given a courtesy promotion to Major for as long as they travel aboard ship.
PFT Commenter, one of the funniest American sports media trolls out there.
"What is the vessel's name?"
"Buster Boat."
"Are you the master of the vessel?"
"Uh, yeah, kinda, although I was following Steele..."
SeekTruthFromFacts
King
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So ironic to read this from an American. I think you missed the memo:
Large empires that 'absorb' adjacent territories are Good Things and heroic revolutionary melting pots. China, Russia/USSR, USA....
Large empires that 'conquer' territories across the oceans are Bad Things and old-fashioned imperialists. Britain, France, Japan...
When did I imply anything of the sort? I'm not making a moral statement. Australia was certainly remote from the British Isles, wasn't it?
SeekTruthFromFacts
King
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On re-reading the context of your comment, I see your point. Sorry, I was unfair.
H4run
Deity
I forgot the name of the Vatican document or something that stated the Catholic church own the whole world, and they divided the ownership of this world for example Japan is own by the Spanish, and the list is go on. First I encounter it after reading James Clavel, but now I want to remember it again but I fail to remember. Anyone can help me please?
That's the Treaty of Tordesillas.
Pope Alexander VI had decreed that Spain owned pretty much the entire world in his bills Inter caetera (1493) and Dudum siquidem (1493). The Portuguese weren't very happy with that and, since they were powerful enough, forced the Spanish to agree to a division of the world instead, which was ratified at the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494. This overrode the Catholic Church's instructions on the matter, but fortunately Pope Julius II issued a new bill called Ea quae pro bono pacis (1506) which endorsed the settlement of Tordesillas.
So it wasn't really anything to do with the church claiming to own the whole world, and it wasn't even the church (or the Vatican) dividing it out - the agreement was reached by secular powers, and only endorsed after the fact by the Pope.
Pope Alexander VI had decreed that Spain owned pretty much the entire world in his bills Inter caetera (1493) and Dudum siquidem (1493). The Portuguese weren't very happy with that and, since they were powerful enough, forced the Spanish to agree to a division of the world instead, which was ratified at the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494. This overrode the Catholic Church's instructions on the matter, but fortunately Pope Julius II issued a new bill called Ea quae pro bono pacis (1506) which endorsed the settlement of Tordesillas.
So it wasn't really anything to do with the church claiming to own the whole world, and it wasn't even the church (or the Vatican) dividing it out - the agreement was reached by secular powers, and only endorsed after the fact by the Pope.
The Treaty of Tordesillas/Tordesilhas only demarcated the line between Portuguese and Spanish zones of influence west of Europe - While Inter Caetera decreed that this line would be 100 leagues (556km/345 miles) west of Cape Verde, the Treaty of Tordesilhas decreed that this line would be 350 leagues (1944km/1208 miles) west of Cape Verde, with the Portuguese receiving everything east of the line, and the Spanish receiving everything west of this line
It took until 1529 for the border between Portuguese and Spanish influences in the east to be demarcated, with the Treaty of Zaragoza/Saragossa stated the meridian was 297.5 leagues (1487km/892 miles) east of the Maluku, leaving the Portuguese with all of the incredibly valuable Moluccas islands, and the Spanish empty-handed in the east.
It took until 1529 for the border between Portuguese and Spanish influences in the east to be demarcated, with the Treaty of Zaragoza/Saragossa stated the meridian was 297.5 leagues (1487km/892 miles) east of the Maluku, leaving the Portuguese with all of the incredibly valuable Moluccas islands, and the Spanish empty-handed in the east.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
That green line marks Papua New Guinea almost perfectly. Was there ever any Spanish interest in colonizing it? Then again, I can see that the Philippines are clearly within the Portuguese side, so I guess things didn't really matter by that point.
H4run
Deity
@Plotinus: thank you Plotinus! however I still have something in my mind, how can the catholic church grant something to someone if they don't claim the ownership of it?
I read this in the historical novel talking about the history of William Adams (in the novel his name is John Blackthorne) the British sailor who went to Japan with Dutch sailor and later on he work under Ieyashu (in novel Toranaga). IIRC, I believe he told the Shogun that the Vatican claim ownership of the world, as it somekind of church property, that later on the Shogun have more trust to the protestant especially Dutch and lost trust to the Catholic in general. After Edo period, there are no nations can set foot to Japan except Dutch, I thought it also have the connection with William Adams, as most of his crew are from Dutch and protestant.
However even this is historical novel, this is still a novel, that is why I need to verify the information in this forum.
@WIM: Thanks for the maps and the explanation! that is so helpful, this is for my paper tomorrow on colonialism!
I read this in the historical novel talking about the history of William Adams (in the novel his name is John Blackthorne) the British sailor who went to Japan with Dutch sailor and later on he work under Ieyashu (in novel Toranaga). IIRC, I believe he told the Shogun that the Vatican claim ownership of the world, as it somekind of church property, that later on the Shogun have more trust to the protestant especially Dutch and lost trust to the Catholic in general. After Edo period, there are no nations can set foot to Japan except Dutch, I thought it also have the connection with William Adams, as most of his crew are from Dutch and protestant.
However even this is historical novel, this is still a novel, that is why I need to verify the information in this forum.
@WIM: Thanks for the maps and the explanation! that is so helpful, this is for my paper tomorrow on colonialism!
In global politics every line on the map is essential!
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Eh, not really. Or it's only essential until it's not and it no longer reflects the true state of things. Given that you didn't really answer the question at all beyond a conclusory statement and the statement is contradicted by the Philippines anyway, it's hard to believe you even believe your statement.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
My impression is that the "Papal donation" angle seems to have been more significant in terms of the internal debates over the purpose of the empire, duties to the natives, etc., rather than divvying up European territorial claims. (The"Most Christian Majesties" in France, notably, did not give so much as a quantum toss about it.) Is that close to the mark?
CaptainLost
Oberleutnant
No one has ever been able to give me a clear, unbiased answer to this one: where was Hitler on the political scale? Left, right, something else...
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