History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VII

Plotinus said:
Not that it's really on-topic, but there's already overpopulation.

There is no overpopulation in developed countries, though. Only in Third World countries.

Developed countries still have a capacity to house and feed much more people than actually live there.

In 1913 France had 41 million people and was self-sufficient in terms of food production. At that time crops of wheat in France amounted to 1,6 - 1,7 tons per 1 ha. By 2013 crops of wheat in France increased to 7,2 tons per 1 ha (so 4,5-times) but population only to 65 million (so 1,5-times). And cultivation area of wheat did not decrease. Also average yield of milk per one cow in France increased 4-times between 1913 and 2013, and number of cows did not decline.
 
Was wheat production in 1913 France entirely from modern France (i.e., France itself minus Algeria) or did it include Algeria and the Colonies?
 
I think this data refers to production from modern France only. In colonies probably production per hectare was lower.

In the rest of Europe agricultural productivity per hectare also increased about 3-times during the 20th century.

Among other factors, introducing much more efficient fertilizers helped in achieving that.

Specialization of production naturally has also contributed to increased productivity per hectare.

=======================================

Another difference is that in 1913 France farmers = numerous peasant families, while in 2013 France farmers = few educated businessmen. Modern Eastern Europe is still a bit closer to 1913 France than to 2013 France in this respect, as most of farms are still relatively small family farms, and size of agricultural population is still much bigger than in Western Europe (where only a handful of people now live from agriculture, and they are a kind of enterpreneurs). In Poland in big cities like Warsaw or Poznan standards of living are quite similar to Western European ones, but in the countryside there is more "diversity", some villages prosper while some others - especially ones where State Agricultural Farms existed in Communist period - have sky-rocketing unemployment & poverty. Near my hometown I could see such contrasts, one village looks well-maintained and rich while in another one (post-SAF one) you can smell alcohol upon entering.
 
Domen said:
Future PM said:
There's also the simple fact that Haplogroups can't differentiate between people that closely related anyway

Manfred Kayser, "Significant genetic differentiation between Poland and Germany as revealed by Y-chromosome analysis", 2005, wrote:

"(...) The observed genetic differentiation was mainly, but not exclusively, due to the frequency distribution of two Y-SNP haplogroups and their associated Y-STR haplotypes: R1a, most frequent in Poland, and R1b, most frequent in Germany. (...)"

(...) results of Manfred Kayser from 2005, which were based on much larger and geographically diverse samples - 1215 from Germany from 11 cities (103 from Berlin, 144 from Leipzig, 100 from Magdeburg, 96 from Rostock, 104 from Greifswald, 161 from Hamburg, 102 from Muenster, 102 from Freiburg, 96 from Cologne, 95 from Mainz, 112 from Munich) and 913 from Poland from 8 cities (101 from Wroclaw, 121 from Warsaw, 112 from Lublin, 150 from Gdansk, 100 from Cracow, 105 from Szczecin, 82 from Suwalki, 142 from Bydgoszcz).

Here is a map based on the results of Manfred Kayser's study (red color is R1a haplogroup, yellow color is R1b haplogroup):

Kayser.png


I'm not sure what do numbers inside pie charts mean - just ignore them and compare the percent shares of haplogroups. Of course results vary from study to study, but generally Germany scores (extreme values) between 35-50% R1b and 15-25% R1a, while Poland between 45-60% R1a and 10-20% R1b. Highest frequencies of R1a in Germany can be found in areas of historic Slavic settlement and in areas of recent Slavic or East German (including post-1945 refugees) immigration. It also seems that highest frequencies of R1b in Poland can be found in areas located just to the east of historic Polish-German border.
 
Developed countries still have a capacity to house and feed much more people than actually live there..

No doubt we could house and feed vastly more people if we turned the entire surface of the Earth over to housing and food factories, like Coruscant. But the question whether it's possible to house and feed more people isn't the only factor in assessing whether we have too many people. The rest of the natural world has value in its own right quite apart from its status as a resource for us to pillage.
 
Plotinus said:
The rest of the natural world has value in its own right quite apart from its status as a resource for us to pillage.

Well, Europe has already gotten rid of most of its natural world long time ago. I haven't yet listened to the whole of the speech by David Attenborough that you linked, but I suppose that he does not mention any large wild animals in Britain that need to be saved (in this part which I've listened to so far, he mentions Arabian, Spanish, American, Javan, etc. animals that are threatened with extinction) - because all or nearly all of them are already gone.

Red deer is probably the largest wild mammal that you still have in Britain, correct me if I'm wrong.

Nowadays the natural world is more endangered in developing countries (the Third World), than in developed countries.

Developed countries have applied many measures to protect and preserve whatever has left of their nature.
 
I'm not sure that "We've already slaughtered most of them, so it doesn't really matter any more" is a very convincing reply to that. In any case, there's far more to the natural world than large mammals! There are plenty of endangered and threatened species in Britain right now, though they're mostly small. Besides, Europeans have an environmental footprint well beyond Europe. The computer I'm typing this on wasn't constructed in Britain from British-mined materials. Even if we try to reduce our environmental impact, this kind of thing is inevitable, which is why having fewer people is the only real way forward.
 
Plotinus said:
which is why having fewer people is the only real way forward.

But having fewer people is nowadays the task of Third World countries - not of people in developed countries - because our countries have not increased their population much since the mid-20th century. For example Hungary had 9,340,000 people in 1950 and 9,990,000 people in 2010 (a growth by 7%), while Kenya had 6,120,000 people in 1950 and 40,840,000 people in 2010 (a growth by 570%). Therefore David Attenborough, instead of delivering such speeches in Britain, should rather go to Third World countries and there teach people about contraception (most of them don't know what it is) and about the need of having fewer people because nature is suffering. Europe will have a smaller or similar population size even without such speeches. Unless we invite millions of immigrants to Europe. If we do this, then we will also have more people, which - as you've claimed - will be threatening to whatever wildlife has remained.

Plotinus said:
There are plenty of endangered and threatened species in Britain right now, though they're mostly small. Besides, Europeans have an environmental footprint well beyond Europe. The computer I'm typing this on wasn't constructed in Britain from British-mined materials.

Obviously we can't just throw away our computers and go back to caves and tents, can we?

There are some priorities - our own species, humans, should be the main priority to us. Animals and plants are quite important but less important than humans. We should do things that are good for our own species first of all. Most of the things which are good for nature, happen to also be good for humans, since we live in natural environments and share the same planet with wildlife. However, the main reason why we should care about the environment is to ensure that we can live on this planet, not to ensure that the planet can live without us. So adding humans to the list of threatened species is not our goal.

In order to connect this somehow to World History - old species go extinct, new emerge, this has always been the case. Mass extinctions happened after natural disasters or when some especially successful species expanded, wiping out less successful ones (examples: dinosaurs, humans).

We can't save them all. But we obviously need some of them to survive.

Plotinus said:
No doubt we could house and feed vastly more people if we turned the entire surface of the Earth over to housing and food factories, like Coruscant.

Coruscant according to wikipedia has about 1 trillion inhabitants. Earth still has just 1/140 of Coruscant's population. ;)

And Coruscant is slightly smaller than Earth: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coruscant
 
IIRC there are no statistics on the 2nd generation because they are counted in statistics as part of "native Dutch", "native Swedes", etc.

Yes, I'm sure. But of course you can just google for second generation immigrant fertility rate studies to find your data.

Entire world is already showing a drop in fertility rate, even African countries (in that last case from 7 births to 6, but still a drop). Which is bad news really, because Greenpeace et. al. are still stuck in the 1970s and claim that there will be overpopulation. While there is going to be a demographic Winter.

You are contradicting yourself again. Firstly, a drop from 7 to 6 isn't going to solve any population problems. Second, the fertility drop in North Africna countries is statistically significant. (Which is why I mentioned it in connection with the drop in fertility in 2nd generation immigrants. What the average fertiltiy rate in non-immigrant countries shows, is rather irrelevant. As is the mention of Greenpeace.)
 
Firstly, a drop from 7 to 6 isn't going to solve any population problems

A drop from 7 to 6 will be followed by a drop from 6 to 5, from 5 to 4, etc. As it took place in Europe (and in other then developing countries).

What the average fertiltiy rate in non-immigrant countries shows, is rather irrelevant.

As long as they have high fertility, no matter how many immigrants you take, they will still have dozens of times more new emigrants to export:

Spoiler :
 
A drop from 7 to 6 will be followed by a drop from 6 to 5, from 5 to 4, etc. As it took place in Europe (and in other then developing countries).

So we're using figures that aren't there (since this assumed fertility drop hasn't happened yet). Interesting argument.

As long as they have high fertility, no matter how many immigrants you take, they will still have dozens of times more new emigrants to export

They would, except that they're non-immigrant countries. Meaning no immigrants are coming from there. Which is why their figures are, well, irrelevant.
 
Manfred Kayser, "Significant genetic differentiation between Poland and Germany as revealed by Y-chromosome analysis", 2005, wrote:

"(...) The observed genetic differentiation was mainly, but not exclusively, due to the frequency distribution of two Y-SNP haplogroups and their associated Y-STR haplotypes: R1a, most frequent in Poland, and R1b, most frequent in Germany. (...)"
(...) Highest frequencies of R1a in Germany can be found in areas of historic Slavic settlement and in areas of recent Slavic or East German (including post-1945 refugees) immigration. (...)

"R1a from an Early Bronze Age warrior grave in Poland", May 3, 2015:

http://polishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/r1a1a-from-early-bronze-age-warrior.html?m=0

The warrior in question, whose Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be R1a1a (read below for more info):

2133069832-img-3050.jpg


Davidski said:
Ancient DNA tests on a skeleton from an Early Bronze Age warrior grave near Hrubieszow, southeastern Poland, have revealed that the remains belong to Y-haplogroup R1a1a [source].

Mitochondrial sequences were also obtained from seven other samples from the same burial site, and assigned to mt-haplogroups H1a, H1b (two), H2a (two), H6 and U5b1.

R1a1a is by far the most frequent Y-haplogroup in Poland today (...)

This is the first Ancient R1a from Poland (previously Bronze Age R1a has been found in what is now East Germany, east of the Elbe).

By comparison no any Ancient, pre-Medieval R1b in Germany east of the Elbe River or in Poland has been found so far.

Artmar said:
Bronze age warior was estimated to be 1.70 high and his weight was estimated to be 72-76 kg. It's me, for a comparison (~193cm, ~90kg)

He posessed haplogroup R1a1, predicted through his y-STR profile that is clearly R1a and somewhere downstream of M417>Z645, probably Z280 (but other options like Z282* or PF6155xM458 and even Z93 can't be excluded at this moment).
I've received contradictory info on whether he is positive to SRY 1532.2 or not(unpopular, non-widely used upstream SNP) but haplotype is unmistakably R1a and he will be tested for much more Y-SNPs in the future.

His pigmentation is a fantasy, allele for a pigmentation of hair, eyes and skin are to be tested soon.

Photo:

11209613_978026812250240_7308937147959173520_n.jpg

This is a huge finding because it shows continuity of paternal lineages between Bronze Age inhabitants of Poland and modern Poles. Peviously another study confirmed the continuity of maternal lineages between Iron Age inhabitants of the region and modern ones - check the link:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=539586

This is a finding roughly from times of Biskupin, i.e. Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age - a video about Biskupin in English:


Link to video.

After Biskupin was discovered in 1933, Germans claimed that it was a settlement of their own Ancient ancestors from "Magna Germania".

Later - by the end of WW2 - they attempted to destroy the settlement, which they had renamed "Our Original Town" ("Urstädt"):

(...) In 1933 Polish archaeologists discovered remains of a Bronze Age fort/settlement in Wielkopolska (Greater Poland), the discovery became famous overnight. The site was excavated from 1934 onwards by the team from Poznań University, led by archaeologists Józef Kostrzewski (1885–1969) and Zdzisław Rajewski (1907–1974). The first report was published in 1936. By the beginning of 1939, ca. 2,500 m2 (26,909.78 sq ft) had been excavated.

(...)

When the Germans occupied Poland in the autumn of 1939, Biskupin was renamed "Urstädt". In 1940, excavations were resumed by the SS-Ahnenerbe until 1942. When Germans were forced to retreat [in January 1945] they flooded the site hoping to destroy it, but—ironically—it led to very good preservation of the ancient timbers. Excavations were resumed by Polish archaeologists after the war and continued until 1974. (...)
 
Domen, if you're trying to actually instruct anyone, stop filling the post with technical jargon and actually explain what any of those letters and codes mean.
 
Arakhor said:
stop filling the post with technical jargon and actually explain what any of those letters and codes mean.

OK, so:

M417, Z645, Z93, Z282, Z280, M458 - mentioned by Artmar - are various branches and sub-branches of R1a haplogroup.

This is Y-DNA so we are talking about marks of direct paternal ancestry (we inherit it from father's father's father's father, and so on).

Of those 6 mentioned above, M417 is the ancestral branch to all of the other 5, which are sub-branches descended from M417. Then we have Z645 - descended from M417, and ancestral to Z93 and Z282. Then Z282 is ancestral to Z280 and M458, both of which are sub-branches of Z282.

I'm not sure about SRY 1532.2, it seems to be something rare and probably not descended from M417.

Here you can find the tree of M417 and its descendants:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/

Legend to this link above:

ybp = years before present (estimated)
formed = when a given mutation on the Y-chromosome first appeared
TMRCA = time of the most recent common ancestor, so when a "family" (branch) started to increase in numbers and grow huge

Here a list of names (many branches have a few alternative names):

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

As for mt-haplogroups / mtDNA hgs (mentioned by Davidski):

Mt-hg is inherited from direct female ancestors, mother's side (you get it from your mother's mother's mother's mother, and so on).

========================

Edit:

I predict that this guy will most likely turn out to belong to Z280 branch or to M458 branch.

The previously found Bronze Age man buried in what is East Germany, who belonged to the archaeological culture known as Lusatian (it extended at its peak from modern West Ukraine to East Germany - its central part being the area of Poland, including Biskupin), turned out to be Z280. Interestingly, Z280 has a more eastward distribution than M458, as it is most frequent among modern East Slavs, while M458 is most frequent among modern West Slavs.

But among Polish people the proportions of Z280 to M458 are between 2:3 and 3:2 (depending on study and sample), so almost equal.

Both of these branches of R1a - Z280 and M458 - correlate strongly with the distribution of the Balto-Slavic family of languages.
 
So does anyone remember when this thread was about asking questions?

Those were the days.
 
On one hand, it may not look like a typical question, but on the other hand - is it worth its own thread?

BTW - another meaning of "question" is a synonym of "issue" (2.):

question (noun)
1. a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information.
2. a matter requiring resolution or discussion.

And the OP by Plotinus says:

A thread for general historical discussion. See its most immediate predecessor here.

As always, please keep discussion civil and constructive, and on historical topics.

Nothing specifically about asking questions, so it must be also for discussing issues.
 
On one hand, it may not look like a typical question, but on the other hand - is it worth its own thread?

BTW - another meaning of "question" is a synonym of "issue" (2.):

question (noun)
1. a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information.
2. a matter requiring resolution or discussion.

And the OP by Plotinus says:



Nothing specifically about asking questions, so it must be also for discussing issues.

Yes, but I'm struggling to find the "issue" of discussion over the last few pages that relates to the haplogroup of early Bronze Age Polish warriors. How did this come up?

Funnily enough, the Poirot model postdates it actually happening for real. The book in question is a novelistic retelling of quite a famous case, but could have been an episode from a detective novel had it not taken place before them! I read another book - Damn His Blood, by Peter Moore - which recounts another true crime, this time from about 1805, which was almost a serious version of Hot Fuzz.

Of course real murders are usually 'straightforward', and the vast majority of police time is not spent interviewing butlers and the like...

While trying to retrace the arguments of the last couple of pages I realise I didn't thank you for this information. This looks a very interesting book and the closest thing I've seen to what I was thinking of.
 
Plotinus said:
How did this come up?

Well it started with the issue of discussing "sweeping migrations" (page 23 onwards) and "how much do people know about their ancestors".

How does this relate to Bronze Age people in Poland? This depends on what happened between the Bronze Age and the Late Iron Age.

As you know there is a theory that in the Late Iron Age all of Poland's inhabitants emigrated to invade the Roman Empire, and later new people speaking another language immigrated from the east and repopulated the abandoned land.

So how comes that recent genetic and anthropological studies show biological continuity of population from the Bronze/Iron Ages to modern times in the territory of Poland? This somehow contradicts the model of migration and replacement.

Another question is were there changes in ethnic identity and language spoken by people in these areas between the Bronze Age and the Early Middle Ages, or not. And if not through population replacement (as assumed by many archaeologists and historians) then how did those transformations take place.

Also if we hear about Germanic-speaking tribes, then we expect haplogroups such as I1, R1b U106 branch or - even if R1a - then Z284 ("Norwegian") branch. No of this was found, instead we find haplogroups typical of Balto-Slavic speakers in Bronze Age and Iron Age burials east of the Elbe River.

In the Early Middle Ages the whole area east of the Elbe was inhabited by Slavic-speakers. But in the Late Iron Age it is believed that Germanic-speakers had lived there (including area of Poland), and before that - in the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age - it is unknown what language was spoken there.

So question is whether there was a series of sweeping migrations replacing population, or a series of sweeping changes in identity and language.

There is also a theory that Ancient Germanic-speaking tribes only marched across the territory of Poland, rather than staying there for a long time, and were never the majority of population. This theory was popular among pre-war Polish archaeologists such as Joseph Kostrzewski.

Kostrzewski claimed that e.g. a tribe named "Goths" did not have to consist of ethnic Gothic (Gothic-speaking) majority. They could be a minority. Finally there are people who claim that those tribes whose names were recorded by Greek and Roman sources could be pre-Slavic / Balto-Slavic.

Of course all of the tribal names of Ancient tribes which are believed to have lived in the territory of Poland, are Later Iron Age tribes (from times of the Classical Antiquity). We don't have any written sources recording the names of even more ancient, Bronze Age and Earlier Iron Age tribes.

Some people argue that Poland was wrongly identified as homeland for those tribes, and for example that Goths originally lived in South Germany, etc. But their own legends, written down on paper by Jordanes, claim that they travelled south from areas near the Baltic Sea coast.

========================

This theme in history has a potential of being heavily politically loaded.

In the past - in the age of 20th century nationalism - both Germans and Poles - who considered themselves to be "heirs" of respectively proto-Germanic and proto-Slavic tribes - used ancient history as justification for their policies and territorial claims. Germany claimed territories in the east based on the supposed range of Germanic-speakers in the Iron Age, and their Lebensraum as well as the Generalplan Ost were justified by that. As for Poland - her claims about the alleged proto-Slavic character of Ancient Poland were rather defensive measures against German claims in the east, while when it comes to Polish claims in the west - those used to be based on the territorial extent of Early Medieval Poland under the Piast dynasty, which served as a justification for them.
 
Question:

Can anyone tell me more about the political situation surrounding the sale of USS Cabot to the Francoist Spanish?
 
Question:

Can anyone tell me more about the political situation surrounding the sale of USS Cabot to the Francoist Spanish?


First thing to note is that Cabot was a WWII ship. And the US Navy had a 1000 odd ships at the end of the war more than they had any use for. That is, they could scrap 1000 ships and still outgun every other navy in the world. Combined. And did scrap ships by the 100s, even ones not yet completed. Further, the Independence class light carriers were never really very good ships in the first place. And in the postwar era, as the US Navy switched from propeller powered aircraft to jets, it was unusable as a carrier of fixed wing aircraft. It was simply too small.

My point in saying this is that this ship had zero real value to the US Navy. We had no use for it. It's a miracle it wasn't scrapped, or used for target practice.

So, that said, why loan, and then sell, it to a nation with which we were not actually in an alliance at the time? More or less just to keep that nation in a more friendly frame of mind towards us than it was towards anyone else. It cost us nothing to buy some goodwill with the Spanish government. And, should a war with the Soviets appear, that ship in Spanish hands might be on our side, even in the absence of Spain being NATO, which they didn't join until later. That is, fascist Spain was a lot more likely to support NATO than the Warsaw Pact should a shooting war start. Giving them a ship useless to us just encouraged that, while strengthening them.

And it wasn't uncommon for the US to dispose of ships it didn't need to neutral nations. The ARA General Belgrano, which was famously sunk in the Falklands War by a British submarine was formerly USS Phoenix.

I was just noticing, 2 ships of the same class was given to France.
 
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