HMS Terror (Gunboat 1900)

[GeneralMatt]

I didn't realize that the Terror would be less armoured at all than the ones of the previous decades, I just thought that since they served the same purpose.

So know I have to do the older type gunboat that I was thinking of originally.. (not one of the Monitor or Merrimac ones). I could not find a lot of images though, so that is why I did this one when I saw it was a gunboat.

 

[GoodGame]

Just been following this interesting arguement . It seems to me you're both right, but the problem is there is no pre-existing, simple implementation that encompasses both arguements. A simple solution: create a "blitz on versus" promotion, to represent the iron vs. wood situation for all naval craft. So give the Terror, and all appropriate later craft "blitz vs. wooden ships", which is a mod comp in itself. I'm guessing the mod comp would basically cause the attack counter to be ignored when fighting particular craft----i.e. "free attack move vs. wooden ships".

I don't know, I was just thinking of some way to make it "Feel" historical. I guess it is not that battleships and stuff cannot blitz through them, it is just that you then could use that ability on other battleships, destroyers etc where as a gunboat will really only effectively fight against wooden ships and transports..

 

[Wolfshanze]

I didn't realize that the Terror would be less armoured at all than the ones of the previous decades, I just thought that since they served the same purpose.

Times change and techniques change, even if the role is the same.

Knights in medieval warfare served the same purpose as cavalry in Napoleonic times, but which was more heavily armored... the medieval knight or the Napoleonic cavalry? The knight was more armored.

Which is more heavily armored... a WWII Battleship, or a modern Aegis Cruiser? The WWII Battleship is, even though the Aegis Cruiser is more modern.

It's no differant with gunboats... ironclad vs more modern gunboats from the turn of the century. The ironclads were more heavily armored, though a modern gunboat was faster and better armed with modern weaponry (relatively speaking).

Simply put, armor of older days generally doesn't hold-up well against more modern weaponry. Wrought iron plating of 1860s ironclads wouldn't do well against a quick-firing high velocity cannon of of 1900... of course not being armored, a 1900 gunboat probably wouldn't do too well taking a full broadside from an ironclad either... I call it a wash.

This is why gunboats from the turn of the century didn't really participate in any fleet battles (nor were intended to)... they were used for police duty and shore bombardment, especially against more "primative" foes... taking on a bunch of wood junks would be easy for a Colonial European gunboat... but you didn't see these gunboats pitted against "real" enemies with more modern weaponry.

As for Civ4 terms, all this talk about use of the Blitz is simple... give it to all modern units or don't give it at all... you don't need to say "Blitz vs only wooden ships"... that's not needed... just Blitz or no Blitz... it's that simple... I can assure you, while a Battleship may run through four frigates in a single turn, a Battleship would not go through four enemy battleships in a single term... the fact it's 40 to 40 instead of 40 to 8 would ensure one battle would be the end of that turn (because 40 vs 8 may leave you with 40, but 40 vs 40 would probably leave you with 6 points... no more fighting for you this turn!).

 

[GoodGame]

I have to disagree in that I can see the value of using blitz to represent a significant technical edge. You're definitely right that even armor of one decade will be surpassed in later decades. Conditional blitz would well represent a highly significant technical edge on the level of "hot knife thru butter". But I agree, I would not hand out blitzes as they are in vanilla, since they represent blitzkrieg tactics of armored units, which are not simply just an edge in armor, but an edge in discipline, training, communications, and equipment.

As for Civ4 terms, all this talk about use of the Blitz is simple... give it to all modern units or don't give it at all... you don't need to say "Blitz vs only wooden ships"... that's not needed... just Blitz or no Blitz... it's that simple... I can assure you, while a Battleship may run through four frigates in a single turn, a Battleship would not go through four enemy battleships in a single term... the fact it's 40 to 40 instead of 40 to 8 would ensure one battle would be the end of that turn (because 40 vs 8 may leave you with 40, but 40 vs 40 would probably leave you with 6 points... no more fighting for you this turn!).

 

[Wolfshanze]

GoodGame, I think you totally missed my point on Blitz... either give it to all or don't give it to anyone... I never said I agreed or disagreed with giving out Blitz, I only disagreed with selectively giving Blitz to Gunboats but not to other ships of the same era.

I also stated that your "conditional blitz" (so-far as I know is impossible to implement in the first place) would also be unnecessary, since a unit engaging another unit in it's own time-frame (say a 40-point Battleship vs a 40-point Battleship) would not be able to use the Blitz on multiple opponents, since a 40-on-40 combat would result in one dead unit and the other unit probably only haveing 6-12 strength left... not enough to engage a 2nd modern unit on the same turn. However, going against an earlier age (say 40 vs 8) would allow the Blitz to be used more then once.

Once again, this would make a "conditional blitz" as you stated totally superflous and unneeded, since the combat values themselves would check over-use of the blitz by modern units on modern units.

My only point was to use Blitz on ALL modern naval vessels, or don't use Blitz on any of them... Matt was championing using naval blitz ONLY on the Gunboat but on no other modern vessel, which to me, seemed quite odd and unwarranted given the circumstances of reality.

 

[GeneralMatt]

Blitz is enabled for all naval units if that is what you mean.. I just still think a small boat would be more effective at mopping up other small boats (if it is sufficiently ahead of them in technology) then a big one.

But to each his own.

And yes, I was thinking of the ironclad era when making this gunboat, so maybe I need to make a new "correct" one.

 

[GoodGame]

Ok I see, I thought you were against blitzing on ships, period.

I think the situation requires selective blitzing for naval forces though, since Civ doesn't handle naval stacks as fleet battles, and fleet battles are a more realistic expectation; All units in naval stack should be expected to be vulnerable to be fought, not just the strongest one being the stack defender. Land units should still hold blitzes for what they were designed for---real blitzkrieg armor tactics---penetration of lines due to mobility and communication. If you would include all land units in your "all should blitz, or none", then I still have to disagree with that. But otherwise, I would argue that all naval units should have blitz to allow for the fluid nature of naval combat, and the fact that fleets will tend not to separate but stay in the vicinity of each other.

Possibly this should call for a fleet action type blitz, where a unit can optionally attack all units in a single stack, assuming it defeats the strongest ones first, until it dies or decline, but only one such 'fleet blitz' per turn. But anyway, nice gunboat unit gain, General Matt!

QUOTE=Wolfshanze;6183247] GoodGame, I think you totally missed my point on Blitz... either give it to all or don't give it to anyone... I never said I agreed or disagreed with giving out Blitz, I only disagreed with selectively giving Blitz to Gunboats but not to other ships of the same era.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Wolfshanze]

If you would include all land units in your "all should blitz, or none", then I still have to disagree with that.

Ugh... now you're putting words in my mouth... when did I EVER talk about not giving land units the Blitz? (or giving it to all of them).

I never once spoke about land units anywhere in this thread, so please don't put words in my mouth... I was only talking about gunboats and modern naval units.

 

[pollastrellif]

I've a problem in displaying the ship.
I used the xml in the spoiler. I've copied the UnitArtInfo from East Indiaman, and set the NIF, KFM and ShadowNIF tags, leaving the others unchanged.

The ship displays fine, but the sea becomes...... funny!!
Is there anything I'm missing?

Spoiler :

<UnitArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_UNIT_GUNBOAT</Type>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Units/ICBM.dds,Art/Interface/Buttons/Beyond_the_Sword_Atlas.dds,8,10</Button>
<fScale>0.45</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.5</fInterfaceScale>
<bActAsLand>0</bActAsLand>
<bActAsAir>0</bActAsAir>
<NIF>Art/Units/Gunboat/terror.nif</NIF>
<KFM>Art/Units/Gunboat/terror.kfm</KFM>
<SHADERNIF/>
<ShadowDef>
<ShadowNIF>Art/Units/Gunboat/BoundShape.nif</ShadowNIF>
<ShadowAttachNode>BIP Pelvis</ShadowAttachNode>
<fShadowScale>1.0</fShadowScale>
</ShadowDef>
<iDamageStates>4</iDamageStates>
<TrailDefinition>
<Texture>Art/Shared/water_ship_wake.dds</Texture>
<fWidth>1</fWidth>
<fLength>180.0</fLength>
<fTaper>1</fTaper>
<fFadeStartTime>.2</fFadeStartTime>
<fFadeFalloff>0.35</fFadeFalloff>
</TrailDefinition>
<fBattleDistance>0.35</fBattleDistance>
<fRangedDeathTime>0.31</fRangedDeathTime>
<bSmoothMove>1</bSmoothMove>
<fAngleInterpRate>720.0</fAngleInterpRate>
<fBankRate>.3</fBankRate>
<fExchangeAngle>25.0</fExchangeAngle>
<bActAsRanged>0</bActAsRanged>
<TrainSound>AS2D_UNIT_BUILD_UNIT</TrainSound>
<AudioRunSounds>
<AudioRunTypeLoop>LOOPSTEP_OCEAN2</AudioRunTypeLoop>
<AudioRunTypeEnd>ENDSTEP_OCEAN2</AudioRunTypeEnd>
</AudioRunSounds>
<SelectionSound>AS3D_UN_OCEAN_END1</SelectionSound>
<ActionSound>AS3D_UN_OCEAN_END1</ActionSound>
</UnitArtInfo>

 

[GeneralMatt]

Could you post an image please?