Holocaust denial

[Gori the Grey]

I guess we could create a new concept for what you're accusing him off, let's call it.. 'Fake obliviousness about the details of the Holocaust'?

Holocaust nonchalance?

 

[Verbose]

Deborah Lippstadt commented on this in The Guardian. She tends to be worth listening to. (Not least since David Irving took her to court, and lost.)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-donald-trump-advisers-soft-holocaust-denial

"Soft Holocaust denial" mayhaps?

The operative bit is the relative "de-Judification" of the Holocaust. Or differently put, not all who were targeted by the Holocaust were Jews, but all Jews were. It's why it matters to try to not garble that bit. Not least since that is precisely part of the "soft" tactics over it on the various Aryan and White Supremacy sites we already know Trump occasionally not just frequents, but sometimes culls ideas and opinions from.

 

[W|M]

Soft Holocaust denial doesn't exist, Holocaust denial is Holocaust denial

 

[Verbose]

The relativization of the event is an issue, and a tactic among those who would prefer if the thing hadn't happened, since it would make certain politics more acceptable to push again.

 

[red_elk]

Soft Holocaust denial doesn't exist, Holocaust denial is Holocaust denial

You are soft holocaust denial denier.

 

[Lexicus]

Soft Holocaust denial doesn't exist, Holocaust denial is Holocaust denial

It's clearly useful to recognize the distinctions between different Holocaust-denying tactics though.

 

[W|M]

Calling one of the tactics ''Soft Holocaust Denial'' implies it's less bad than other forms of Holocaust denial

 

[Lexicus]

Calling one of the tactics ''Soft Holocaust Denial'' implies it's less bad than other forms of Holocaust denial

Isn't it though? I mean, you've got total denial (usually along the lines of "this was a Zionist fabrication") which is imo worse than saying "what about the non-Jewish victims!" or arguing that fewer people were killed than actually were.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Calling one of the tactics ''Soft Holocaust Denial'' implies it's less bad than other forms of Holocaust denial

Isn't it though? I mean, you've got total denial (usually along the lines of "this was a Zionist fabrication") which is imo worse than saying "what about the non-Jewish victims!" or arguing that fewer people were killed than actually were.

In some ways, "less bad" is almost an irrelevant distinction... like is a termite infestation of your house "less bad" than a large tree branch falling on your house and caving in a section?

I can certainly see the validity in the position that the folks taking the position that "forgetting the holocaust isn't that big a deal" are actually worse/more harmful than the tin-foil hatters claiming that "the holocaust is a hoax"... because the tin-foil hatters are both rare as well as already marginalized and met with almost universal dismissal/scorn, whereas the "not a big deal" folks are more numerous and their position has broader acceptance... the risk this position poses is far less obvious.

Its like the tree versus the termites... one is more dramatic, but far more obvious, far less likely to happen and far easier to defend against. The other can do just as much (or more) harm, but is far more difficult to spot, and slowly erodes/degrades from within, without the obvious red flags.

 

[Verbose]

Calling one of the tactics ''Soft Holocaust Denial'' implies it's less bad than other forms of Holocaust denial

And?

It's a tactic rather. It might be relevant to look at what such a position does.

(That said, the confused yet quick back-pedalling by Spicer seems to indicate he had no real idea what was coming out his mouth. Possibly he was simply channeling received ideas from inside the White House?)

 

[Naskra]

Some people live in the real world -- the one that's not infested with holocaust deniers who need to be ferreted out and persecuted.

 

[Berzerker]

Isn't it though? I mean, you've got total denial (usually along the lines of "this was a Zionist fabrication") which is imo worse than saying "what about the non-Jewish victims!" or arguing that fewer people were killed than actually were.

So recognizing the other victims too is a bad thing?

 

[Verbose]

Some people live in the real world -- the one that's not infested with holocaust deniers who need to be ferreted out and persecuted.

They're already inside the White House, making policy for the US.

 

[Lexicus]

Its like the tree versus the termites... one is more dramatic, but far more obvious, far less likely to happen and far easier to defend against. The other can do just as much (or more) harm, but is far more difficult to spot, and slowly erodes/degrades from within, without the obvious red flags.

This is a good point, I was only thinking about the substance of the claims and I stand by what I said if we restrict the analysis that way. But you're probably right, the "soft" denial tropes are probably more dangerous in the "meta" sense.

 

[Naskra]

They're already inside the White House, making policy for the US.

This is why we can't have nice politics. A holocaust denier is someone who denies the holocaust, not just anyone you don't like.

 

[onejayhawk]

This is why we can't have nice politics. A holocaust denier is someone who denies the holocaust, not just anyone you don't like.

The funny thing is that there is a holocaust denier who still advocates extermination of Jews. This thread touches on him occasionally. He's the guy that used chemical weapons in his own country.

J

 

[civver_764]

I don't even understand the connection between anti-semitism and holocaust denial. Surely a real anti-semite would say something like "the holocaust happened, and I'm glad it did!". On the other side, someone could adore Jewish people or be Jewish themselves and still for some reason question whether the holocaust happened.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't even understand the connection between anti-semitism and holocaust denial.

Then I'm thinking that this is probably the best place to start... rather than even getting into the other stuff.

 

[Hygro]

I don't even understand the connection between anti-semitism and holocaust denial. Surely a real anti-semite would say something like "the holocaust happened, and I'm glad it did!". On the other side, someone could adore Jewish people or be Jewish themselves and still for some reason question whether the holocaust happened.

Holocaust denial is a tool to discredit that Jews have been persecuted, and is used as "evidence" that Jews are trying to take from others by way of "playing" a fake "victim card".

 

[civver_764]

Holocaust denial is a tool to discredit that Jews have been persecuted, and is used as "evidence" that Jews are trying to take from others by way of "playing" a fake "victim card".

Ok, I hear you on that anti-semitic individuals might use holocaust denial to suit their agenda. But isn't the act itself of holocaust denial divorced from anti semitism?