Holocaust denial


... me too

Hehe, I should have given Mel Brooks credit for the inspiration.

For me this illustrates the principle that holocaust denial does not necessarily require intent. If you "forget" about the holocaust, or ignore it, or speak about things in a way that implies that the holocaust didn't happen... that's holocaust denial... and the best way to address it is to immediately say "Ooops my bad, I was wrong/stupid/careless to forget about the holocaust"... and quickly move on. Trying to explain, justify, defend, or contextualize your remarks just makes it worse.

When people forget to mention the other victims are they denying the holocaust?

Berzerker believes you can murder someone that objects to you stalking them.

Yes, I'm tired... Okay, it should be legal to murder neighborhood watch volunteers. Happy?
 
Yes, I'm tired... Okay, it should be legal to murder neighborhood watch volunteers. Happy?

Not really. The implication that neighborhood watch volunteers are allowed to stalk people, or that they routinely do, is still a gross misrepresentation of reality.
 
missing-the-point.gif

I forgot to address this specifically... My question was for Lex, not you. Since the two of you brought up the all lives matter thread, and since Lex accused me of a track record of anti-semitism, I was wondering if my defense of Zimmerman was part of that track record. You missed my point...
 
Berzerker, before I do my Grandpa Abe impression .... do you understand why there's an objection to the use of All Lives Matter when people are talking about BLM?
 
Yes, what he posted afterward was the opposite... But he liked your post. He put his stamp of approval right below your comment. And now he says its a flagrant lie while still giving you credit for understanding what he meant. Well, he didn't accuse you of a flagrant lie, he saved that for me. So you agree BLM excludes people and ALM should be used instead? Thats FPs understanding of your point.
So at this point FP has twice (thrice?) told you that you are wrong about what his post meant. You are flat out wrong about what his post meant, and thus flat out wrong about why I liked his post. This has been explained to you multiple times by FP, and you keep ignoring him and keep insisting that his post means what you want it to mean because, your erroneous interpretation is you basis for criticizing me, which you are so desperate to do... no matter how many times it is pointed out to you how wrong you are on the basic facts.
Since the two of you brought up the all lives matter thread
wrong again... and you've been told this already, but you ignored it because you're so desperate to keep arguing about Zimmerman... Dude if you want to keep arguing about Zimmerman, why not just just post in the other thread? I'll fight with you over there, OK?... Its just that this thread has nothing to do with Zimmerman...

@Lexicus - I think the reason he keeps asking the bizarre, disingenuous question about Zimmerman defense being an example of being anti-semetic is that he hopes you will say yes (why he thinks you would say yes is a mystery) and then he plans to triumphantly point out that "Zimmerman is a Peruvian Jew"... just putting that out there because I'm frankly tired of hearing the bait over and over, knowing no one is going to fall for it... its just a tiresome tangent that I want to end... Zimmerman has nothing to do with this discussion.
 
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Well. Yes. I have understood that now, and this is indeed quite embarrassing. I should have read your posts more carefully, not sure how I misread your very unambiguous posts twice. Sorry. :lol:
No worries, glad we're on the same page now:)
That pretty much, but it's not a matter of "wrong" and "correct". I was trying to convince you that they are doing themselves a disfavor in using a definition that I think is not commonly used.
To accuse him of holocaust denial is to downplay what holocaust denial actually is.
And you're diminishing the meaning of the word.
I wanted to try to get us on the same page before addressing this point. It's long, so I'll put the TL;DR in bold. So here goes...The thought process behind your bolded position, as I understand it, is that the Anne Frank Center (and similar/like minded groups/persons) should be focusing their fire on shaming, criticizing, marginalizing, etc, the folks who claim the holocaust never happened, that its all Jewish, Zionist etc., propaganda... the holocaust tin-foil hatters, as it were. Is that right? Also, by broadening the definition of "holocaust denial" in this way, they risk undermining their goal, by annoying, alienating people like you (the royal you), who want "holocaust denial" to be limited to the tin-foil-hatters. Is that also correct? And by "overusing" the term "holocaust denial" they risk desensitizing people like you (the royal you), to it, sort of like a "cry-wolf" effect. Is that also right?

Here is one of the problems with that argument. First, the holocaust tin-foil-hatters are already marginalized, so the agenda is moving the ball forward... to raise holocaust awareness/sensitivity by establishing a new baseline cultural norm, specifically, that forgetting the holocaust is a cultural faux pas in-and-of-itself. They are trying to make the idea that "ignoring/forgetting the holocaust isn't that big of a deal" into a fringe position. That is the agenda. So please consider that your position is essentially that... "stick to the tin-foil hatters, and leave the rest of us alone... accidentally forgetting the holocaust, or mis-remembering/misspeaking about it, is just not that big a deal". Can you see that this attitude is exactly what they are trying to make into a faux pas? You imply that if they just focus on the tin-foil-hat guys you would support them... But can you see that they don't want your support?... because your position is diametrically opposed to their goal. Imagine someone saying "if you black guys eat at your black restaurants and stay out of the white ones, I will support integration, meaning we can all live in the same town." Your position is exactly what they are trying to place under the baseline cultural norm.

So when you (the royal you) say that they are "diminishing" or "downplaying" or undermining their cause or "doing themselves a disfavor"... to who? To you (the royal you)? Yeah they don't care about that. You aren't the persuasion target, you're the marginalization target, because your attitude is what they are trying to make into a faux pas. Your position is that forgetting (accidentally or otherwise) about the holocaust isn't that big a deal. In other words, raising holocaust awareness to a high level just isn't a big priority for you. That's part of the reason their position irritates/alienates you, because in a way you probably sense indirectly, that your position is the target of their fire. In other words, they won't let people get away with thinking that accidentally forgetting the holocaust is excusable. Also, another side of this, as we've discussed before, is when a particular cause isn't a personal priority there is a tendency to become more easily alienated, irritated, put-off by the methodology used to advance that cause... regardless of what the methodology actually is. The shorthand we've been using is "Don't like the what/who, not gonna like the how, regardless."

Another example of this issue... I've found that the position you are taking is very common in another context, specifically with the term "racism". What I have (relatively recently) learned, debating here with my CFC pals, is that there is a pretty common attitude that the terms "racism" and "racist" should be reserved only for open-and-notorious, self-described, unrepentant white -supremacists, for example. Essentially, unless someone is a card-carrying, pointy-hat regalia wearing, member of the KuKluxKlan, it is inappropriate to accuse them of racism or saying/doing something racist.

But the problem is that I (and others for whom confronting racism is a top priority) do not embrace that limitation/definition. The Klan is already marginalized (although... given recent events... more on that later, maybe) so limiting our fire to them is a waste... we want to focus on establishing a new baseline cultural norm, where, for example, dogwhistling is a faux pas. Its about moving the ball forward, that's the agenda. You (the royal you) might want the agenda to stay limited to shaming the Klan, but we (the royal we) don't embrace that limitation. And your complaint that this alienates you isn't the least bit persuasive, precisely because we recognize, that your annoyance/alienation is as much a result of you not assigning the same level of priority to the cause as we do... as it results from any displeasure with our particular methodology. Again, don't like the what/who = disapprove of the how, regardless.

Another analogy I'd like to draw here, is... the bolded arguments (are not exactly the same as, but) have some key elements in common with, the idea that "Democrats shouldn't filibuster Gorsuch, they need to save the filibuster for a more appropriate time", with "appropriate" being essentially, when filibuster opponents (and Republicans) think it would be appropriate, according to what filibuster opponents/Republicans think the Democrat's agenda should be. Of course, in that case, like here, with the "holocaust denial" term... what the opponents think the agenda should be does not line up with what the agenda actually is.
 
I have encountered people online and offline who get irritated by discussion of the Holocaust, irritated at the idea that Holocaust denial can result in anything from slight disapproval to serious consequences (it has in Canada, in a few cases, depending on the circumstances), and one person on another forum said, "It was 70 years ago, they should just get over it already!"

This person is German, lives in Germany, and that site is a huge Star Trek forum. The rest of the people in that thread were appalled that this person would be so... I can't even think of the appropriate words. Insensitive? Ignorant? Clueless? She's close to my age, so she doesn't have the excuse of teenage carelessness.

Considering that some people who went through that horror are still alive, it's entirely inappropriate to say they "should just get over it." It's like saying the residential school survivors in Canada should "just get over it"... they can't. The consequences spill over to the next generation, and the next after that as psychological, physical, and economic factors can contribute to families having problems in more than one area of their lives.
 
Another example of this issue... I've found that the position you are taking is very common in another context, specifically with the term "racism". What I have (relatively recently) learned, debating here with my CFC pals, is that there is a pretty common attitude that the terms "racism" and "racist" should be reserved only for open-and-notorious, self-described, unrepentant white -supremacists, for example. Essentially, unless someone is a card-carrying, pointy-hat regalia wearing, member of the KuKluxKlan, it is inappropriate to accuse them of racism or saying/doing something racist.
I mean, I'm glad you're making that comparison, because this is the perfect example for what happens when you overuse a word.

The word 'racism' has completely lost its power in the societal discourse, nobody cares a dime about it anymore. Trump got president while being called a racist in 50 articles per day, Brexit happened despite its supporters being called racists for it... in Germany we have a large movement against refugees that didn't give a damn about being called racists, because the word is so overused as an accusation, that the general public just doesn't get triggered by it anymore.

The same obviously won't happen to holocaust denial, simply because it's not actually an issue anybody really cares about deeply these days (well, except the Jews, for obvious reasons), but still. If instead of calling a person out for the idiotic mistake they made you accuse them of something that they didn't actually do, you make yourself look bad. Calling Pepe the Frog a Hate Symbol, and completely overreacting to nonsense, will make more people become "anti-Jew" than if you just let Spencer make a fool out of himself and instead of trying to put a sticker on him that doesn't actually match his "crime", and give information about why he's wrong and an idiot to those who legitimately didn't know before.

Sorry for ignoring the rest of your post, it's just soooooo damn long.
 
Well yeah, of course it does, I fully admit that.

It's just that your point is meaningless to me because I think your strategy is a losing strategy, for the reasons I mentioned in my post. You (royal you) don't actually persuade people when you're acting like a bully or a crybaby.
 
But that's just it right? The point isn't to persuade folks who have that viewpoint. The point is to change the norm so that their viewpoint becomes fringe, which in turn influences folks to have that viewpoint less and less. I can certainly see why you call that bullying, but one man's bullying is another man's free speech or "societal norms" or "tradition" etc...
 
Yeah, and that's fine, in the battle of ideas you use the strategy that you think is going to get your ideas to have public acceptance.

My point is that a) in my opinion that strategy won't work, and b) there's absolutely nothing to be gained from redefining holocaust denial like that.
 
Spicer is the press secretary. His job is to feed the administration line to the press. His message here is simple: Bombing Syria is justified because Assad is a very bad man. Spicer's job is not to say the correct things about the holocaust with the approved words. If you are hearing holocaust denial in his statement, then the dumb ignorant Spicer is talking over your head. My apologies for returning to topic.
 
Berzerker, before I do my Grandpa Abe impression .... do you understand why there's an objection to the use of All Lives Matter when people are talking about BLM?

Of course, a half century ago the Democrats and Republicans replaced Jim Crow with a drug war and made black neighborhoods ground zero. The resulting violence and injustices are making people angry and some want the focus to be on the black victims of state violence. I want to focus on all the victims, I dont care what shade of brown they are. I object to making victims play king of the hill with the losers getting shoved off. Hell, I get the impression some BLM supporters are happy to shove other victims off the hill.

No, it isn't. As I said before, that's the opposite of my understanding of his point.

Can you explain why he liked the following comment?

I think he was talking about the broader issue of people thinking that 'black lives matter' excludes people, and that 'all lives matter' should be used instead.

He didn't call that a flagrant lie, he agreed with it... He only called it a flagrant lie when I said he agreed with your comment.

So at this point FP has twice (thrice?) told you that you are wrong about what his post meant.

What did his post mean? His post speaks for itself... No, he's claiming you believe the opposite of what he posted. So why do you keep giving him credit for understanding what you meant? Why did you like his post if you believe the opposite?

You are flat out wrong about what his post meant, and thus flat out wrong about why I liked his post. This has been explained to you multiple times by FP, and you keep ignoring him and keep insisting that his post means what you want it to mean because, your erroneous interpretation is you basis for criticizing me, which you are so desperate to do... no matter how many times it is pointed out to you how wrong you are on the basic facts. wrong again... and you've been told this already, but you ignored it because you're so desperate to keep arguing about Zimmerman... Dude if you want to keep arguing about Zimmerman, why not just just post in the other thread? I'll fight with you over there, OK?... Its just that this thread has nothing to do with Zimmerman...

Why do you keep mentioning Zimmerman?

@Lexicus - I think the reason he keeps asking the bizarre, disingenuous question about Zimmerman defense being an example of being anti-semetic is that he hopes you will say yes (why he thinks you would say yes is a mystery) and then he plans to triumphantly point out that "Zimmerman is a Peruvian Jew"... just putting that out there because I'm frankly tired of hearing the bait over and over, knowing no one is going to fall for it... its just a tiresome tangent that I want to end... Zimmerman has nothing to do with this discussion.

Why is it bizarre and disingenuous? You're still missing my point... Lex accused me of a track record of anti-semitism. So, was my defense of Zimmerman part of that track record? I cant get an answer, but I would expect the answer to be 'no', not 'yes'.

I think he was talking about the broader issue of people thinking that 'black lives matter' excludes people, and that 'all lives matter' should be used instead.

Why did you like that comment if you believe the opposite?
 
Black Lives Matter is a slogan that is short for "Black lives matter, too". That itself is a response to, as you put it, Jim Crow (black lives don't matter) and the drug war where black communities and people are ground zero (black lives don't matter). Seems pretty easy to get on board with the idea that the two sides are "black lives matter, too" vs "black lives don't matter".

"Black lives matter, too" in fact starts with the implicit premise that "all lives matter."
 
''All Lives Matter'' is a white supremacist movement pretending to be a pro-equality movement by invisibilizing the struggles of black people
 
"All Lives Matter" is not a movement, it's a phrase people use to counter "Black Lives Matter".

The reasons they do that are many, but given that "Black Lives Matter" is indeed implicit in "All Lives Matter" I would be surprised if it was used by actual white supremacists.

It is being used by people as a way to diminish the validity of BLM though, some of which have an anti-black attitude.
 
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