Holodomor Remembrance Day...

[red_elk]

Yes, they were part of Poland.

The Soviet part of Western Ukraine was less affected too. The regions where absolute majority of population were ethnic Ukrainians.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

As I said, estimates vary. Average numbers give 3-4 millions died in Ukrainian territory, 2-3 in RSFSR and another 1.5-2 in Kazakhstan.
If you look at the most affected areas, in Ukraine they were to the East of Kiev, where significant proportion of ethnic Russians lived, in some areas >75%
Territories of modern Western Ukraine were not affected at all.

I call bullfeathers... again, show me some stats or stfu.

Moderator Action: No need for that. Just ask nicely. Birdjaguar.

 

[Broken_Erika]

The Holodomor and Stalin's purges went hand in hand to decimate the Ukrainian people.

 

[red_elk]

The Holodomor and Stalin's purges went hand in hand to decimate the Ukrainian people.

Neither one targeted Ukrainians as ethnic group. And neither one had decimating people as a goal.

 

[Broken_Erika]

but the end effect was about the same.

 

[red_elk]

but the end effect was about the same.

There is a difference between criminal disregard for human life and deliberate extermination of ethnic, religious or racial group.
Otherwise Allied strategic bombings would be considered as the Holocaust-level atrocity.

 

[amadeus]

I agree with @red_elk that collectivism, not racism, was at the heart of the problem.

 

[Broken_Erika]

It was because Stalin was trying to industrialize, but the famine hit, and instead of dealing with the famine, Stalin wanted to keep up the grain exports to pay for the industrial machinery they were buying with grain.

 

[Ajidica]

but the end effect was about the same.

The 30 Years War resulted in the death of approximately 1/3 of the German population, with some areas reaching up to 2/3s; a tragedy of monumental proportions to be sure, not a large death toll does not equate to intention.
In pre-modern farming, famines happened every decade or so; and the Ukraine was already dealing with after-effects from the Great War, the Civil War, and a famine brought on by the upheavals of conflict in the early 1920s. The effect of the famine was exacerbated by incompetence and the sad indifference of Soviet authorities toward suffering.

 

[Zardnaar]

It was because Stalin was trying to industrialize, but the famine hit, and instead of dealing with the famine, Stalin wanted to keep up the grain exports to pay for the industrial machinery they were buying with grain.

Yep it took them until the 30's to reach where they were in 1914.

If the Tsar wasn't an idiot or the Communists werent stupid Russia would have been even more powerful without the death and destruction of both wars, civil war and Stalin's regime.

 

[Gelion]

Yes, they were part of Poland.

Not all of them.

If the Tsar wasn't an idiot or the Communists werent stupid Russia would have been even more powerful without the death and destruction of both wars, civil war and Stalin's regime.

Its pretty much open to debate because by 1914 Russia was in many ways a half-colony and with time it would have been more dependent on Western loans and capital, not to mention the impossibility of radical (and bloody!) reforms under the old system.

 

[Gelion]

but the end effect was about the same.

Bloody Soviets even reached the UK with their genocidal hands

Spoiler :

For more than three hours, on November 1, the fully mobilized police of the metropolis of the British Empire battled with the thousands of Hunger Marchers and their sympathizers in order to prevent the latter from getting a hearing for their demands in parliament. About five thousand jobless had converged on London the week before in a Hunger March under the auspices of the National Unemployed Workers Movement (N.U.W.M.), supported by the Communist Party and by a large number of unions and local Labor party branches. The chief demand in the program of the unemployed was the abolition of the hated "Means Test," according to which the jobless have to "prove" that they are without means before they can get relief. The operation of the "Means Test" has deprived any relief and humiliated hundreds of thousands more. Throughout their route, the marchers received demonstrations of the sympathy of the English working people. In London, about 50,000 workers turned out to cheer them and demonstrate along with them. The MacDonald "National"-Tory government immediately mobilized its forces of repression and called into action the entire police. . . .Brutal attaches were launched on the jobless demonstrations, especially at the tremendous meetings in Hyde Park and Trafalgar Square. On the eve of the day upon which the Hunger Marches announced their intention of marching to Parliament and presenting their demands, W. A. L. Hennington, head of the movement, and other leaders were arrested on the charge of sedition, and the offices of N.U.W.M. raided and destroyed. The authorities hoped that be depriving the movement of its leaders, they could easily disperse it, but the three hour battle on November 1 showed their mistake. While not as broad or as deeply rooted as the unemployed movement of some years ago, the present Hunger March represents a significant action of British labor. . . .

 

[FriendlyFire]

There is a difference between criminal disregard for human life and deliberate extermination of ethnic, religious or racial group.
Otherwise Allied strategic bombings would be considered as the Holocaust-level atrocity.

Imagine if Germany suggest that the invasion of Russia was a bad thing but at least they didnt set out to deliberately exterminate Russians, just enslave you as lessor humans.
Otherwise Russia allying with Hitler and invading, annexing lands then enslaving the population is just as bad as the Nazis

Just imagine Germany trying to downplay its atrocities in Russia, You would also be pretty mad.

 

[red_elk]

Imagine if Germany suggest that the invasion of Russia was a bad thing but at least they didnt set out to deliberately exterminate Russians, just enslave you as lessor humans.

I'd say whoever suggested this was drunk. Why?

 

[Gelion]

Imagine if Germany suggest that the invasion of Russia was a bad thing but at least they didnt set out to deliberately exterminate Russians, just enslave you as lessor humans.
Otherwise Russia allying with Hitler and invading, annexing lands then enslaving the population is just as bad as the Nazis

Just imagine Germany trying to downplay its atrocities in Russia, You would also be pretty mad.

I think you are on to something here. Value parallels are a great way to understand the other point of view. IIRC the view on Holodomor in Russia is negative because it is seen as a deliberate genocide of Ukrainians and because it neglects victims of the same hunger in other parts of USSR. Ukrainians (and Russians, and others) were dying of the same hunger outside the territory of Ukraine, but the current policy on the official victims says that they did not exist.
I have my doubts about the deliberate and project-like nature of this hunger. I do not know enough to call this hunger deliberate, especially in the view of the many hungers that happened in the former Russian Empire. I don't appreciate this deliberate victimhood of specific "high-value people" that is, quite frankly, very common in today's world. Instead of focusing on the common sorrow problems are amplified by selective victimhood.

If we were to make parallels, lets say that in Australia they declared victims of Japanese concentration camps to be the only victims of the Japanese WW2 government, that thousands of South-East Asians, Americans etc didn't suffer in those camps. And they picked a fancy name, such as the "Great Payback of Japanese Criminals for Our Great Asia-Pacific Crusade"? How do you think the governments and people and relatives of those victims of Japanese WW2 policies would feel towards this Australian selectiveness?

 

[Birdjaguar]

I think you are on to something here. Value parallels are a great way to understand the other point of view. IIRC the view on Holodomor in Russia is negative because it is seen as a deliberate genocide of Ukrainians and because it neglects victims of the same hunger in other parts of USSR. Ukrainians (and Russians, and others) were dying of the same hunger outside the territory of Ukraine, but the current policy on the official victims says that they did not exist.
I have my doubts about the deliberate and project-like nature of this hunger. I do not know enough to call this hunger deliberate, especially in the view of the many hungers that happened in the former Russian Empire. I don't appreciate this deliberate victimhood of specific "high-value people" that is, quite frankly, very common in today's world. Instead of focusing on the common sorrow problems are amplified by selective victimhood.

If we were to make parallels, lets say that in Australia they declared victims of Japanese concentration camps to be the only victims of the Japanese WW2 government, that thousands of South-East Asians, Americans etc didn't suffer in those camps. And they picked a fancy name, such as the "Great Payback of Japanese Criminals for Our Great Asia-Pacific Crusade"? How do you think the governments and people and relatives of those victims of Japanese WW2 policies would feel towards this Australian selectiveness?

Everyone wants to be special and feel that their pain is worse than "yours". The more one can isolate one's pain (or one's group pain), the easier it is to make it stand out. For most people the Holocaust is all about killing Jews; many do not know about the other undesirables who were also terminated. The Cherokee has their Trail of Tears and the Sioux have Wounded Knee, but those events are a small portion of the depopulating of Indian America.

 

[Hygro]

I'm guessing most people don't know what the Holodomor is so here is some reading for your edification...

I think most of us do, at least enough to know that it was Stalin's Great Starvation Party and that the death toll is estimated no higher than 20 million, but possibly much lower.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I think most of us do, at least enough to know that it was Stalin's Great Starvation Party and that the death toll is estimated no higher than 20 million, but possibly much lower.

While I was quite aware of Stalin's "Ukrainian" famine, this thread was the first time I have ever heard the word "Holodomor".

 

[Gelion]

Everyone wants to be special and feel that their pain is worse than "yours". The more one can isolate one's pain (or one's group pain), the easier it is to make it stand out. For most people the Holocaust is all about killing Jews; many do not know about the other undesirables who were also terminated. The Cherokee has their Trail of Tears and the Sioux have Wounded Knee, but those events are a small portion of the depopulating of Indian America.

I suspect that the Cherokee or the Sioux have not denied the misfortunes of the other Native American tribes though or separated their cause from their own, but I understand your point.

While I was quite aware of Stalin's "Ukrainian" famine, this thread was the first time I have ever heard the word "Holodomor".

Thats because it is a political invention based on a real hunger in former USSR.

 

[Hygro]

While I was quite aware of Stalin's "Ukrainian" famine, this thread was the first time I have ever heard the word "Holodomor".

Usually post 200 in a 700 post thread debating communism, one every year or so.