Hotfix and a New Beta Version (4-5)

[LukaSlovenia29]

Yes, but the save file is very big and I can't seem to upload big files lately on any sites

 

[Guynemer]

Just came in to report the same; only having used the hotfixed version, got an "empty" archy site. Reloaded, and I got the "FLIBBY 4" thing.

EDIT: forgot the logs.

EDIT, PART DEUX: Other used mods are just InfoAddict and QuickTurns and Tectonic Map Script

EDIT, ARTICLE 4, PARAGRAPH IIb: I misspoke, using the 4-5 beta, not the hotfix for 3-31.

 

[Guynemer]

Not sure if it is at all relevant or not, but it was the second archy site to complete that turn; the first one worked without a problem.

 

[Randomsheep]

Gazebo will ask for you to post it on github Guynemer.

If you don't already have a github account, I recommend you create one.

 

[Guynemer]

Done and done.

 

[tu_79]

so I am really skeptical about feelings.

Since we are playing for the fun and not for the money, I'd say feelings are pretty important here. A perfect but boring balance won't be appreciated either.

Let's say melee units are fine being weaker for most tasks (as they apparently were two years ago). That throwing many of them against a city may eventually work for capturing that city, even without siege damage. People don't believe it. They see melee taking damage, too much damage, against city walls, so they think it can't work. We changed melee promotions so now it's clear that anyone can use melee for capturing cities (the only obscure thing yet is that blockading a city gives a 20% penalty to the city). This problem, people not using melee for their intended task, was spotted because we asked about feelings.

But there's some truth in that there's not enough statistical data, in controled environments, to take anything for granted, even after three years of dedicated development. Main problem now, in my opinion, is that every player here has a preferred setting, and timings are not the same when changing difficulty, map size and pace, even if some progress has been made in this regard. The bad thing is that some people may complain about some civ under or overperforming, while it's performing perfectly well in other settings. The good thing is that we are having a great time in the process, so it's not wasted time.

 

[Randomsheep]

That is quite a meaningful statement tu.

I agree with your sentiment.

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

Since we are playing for the fun and not for the money, I'd say feelings are pretty important here. A perfect but boring balance won't be appreciated either.
.

I know for fun I don't mind if it's not perfect and I like the balance right now for the games I play (king level, epic speed(hate island maps)). When you work for international insurance and the big bucks are on the line it's a completely different software development environment.

 

[bigcat88]

Just came in to report the same; only having used the hotfixed version, got an "empty" archy site. Reloaded, and I got the "FLIBBY 4" thing.

EDIT: forgot the logs.

EDIT, PART DEUX: Other used mods are just InfoAddict and QuickTurns and Tectonic Map Script

EDIT, ARTICLE 4, PARAGRAPH IIb: I misspoke, using the 4-5 beta, not the hotfix for 3-31.

Thanks for info, I got the same with hotfix, so both versions has identical behaviour.

 

[RedHotTomato]

@Gazebo Can you please fix the culture gain by AI (deity difficulty) for this Beta Version 4-5. I just played a game where AI suddenly won out of the blue when all their influence was "Falling".
Played Continental map, Epic speed.

 

[chicorbeef]

@Gazebo Can you please fix the culture gain by AI (deity difficulty) for this Beta Version 4-5. I just played a game where AI suddenly won out of the blue when all their influence was "Falling".
Played Continental map, Epic speed.

You should probably check to see if the AI's influence level was close to winning despite it saying Falling. Remember that a lot of the Tourism in VP comes from instant yields.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo Can you please fix the culture gain by AI (deity difficulty) for this Beta Version 4-5. I just played a game where AI suddenly won out of the blue when all their influence was "Falling".
Played Continental map, Epic speed.

Nothing to fix. The falling sometimes doesn’t account for instant yields.

G

 

[CppMaster]

Nothing to fix. The falling sometimes doesn’t account for instant yields.

G

Does it ever account for instant yields? I thought it only accounts what you get per turn.

 

[Deadstarre]

Nothing to fix. The falling sometimes doesn’t account for instant yields.

G

I remember this came up recently, you had seemed optimistic about it

Re: Tourism, that's actually something I can fix by making the game check against your instant yields in addition to your yields per turn for tourism (versus their culture per turn + instant yield culture).

G

did it not go to plan? that 'falling' thing really is confusing for people

 

[wobuffet]

Does it ever account for instant yields? I thought it only accounts what you get per turn.

Tourism accumulates (from both per-turn and instant additions), as does the Culture "defense" against it.

You can see your own Instant yields over the past few turns by hovering over the star icon at the top (assuming you have EUI). Unfortunately, no such luck with opponents' Instant yields. I'd suggest monitoring the "% Influential" in the Tourism popup every few turns.

I assume @G has already looked into whether incorporating Instant yields into the Tourism falling/rising dialog by using a metric like "over the past 10 turns" rather than "per-turn yields only"? Obviously that would be better, so I can only assume that it's technically difficult.

 

[ElliotS]

I remember this came up recently, you had seemed optimistic about it



did it not go to plan? that 'falling' thing really is confusing for people

Not to take away, but there's nothing that can or should predict great musicians.

 

[Gazebo]

Does it ever account for instant yields? I thought it only accounts what you get per turn.

I remember this came up recently, you had seemed optimistic about it



did it not go to plan? that 'falling' thing really is confusing for people

It is incorporated, but since it is an average over 10 turns it can go from rising to falling in just a turn or two as the average drops precipitously each turn after a big boost. So it works, but the staggered nature of tourism boosts makes it unpredictable.

G

 

[tu_79]

It is incorporated, but since it is an average over 10 turns it can go from rising to falling in just a turn or two as the average drops precipitously each turn after a big boost. So it works, but the staggered nature of tourism boosts makes it unpredictable.

G

Maybe just the mean in the last 10 turns is not a good mesure. You could try this:

Trend_turn(x) = (however_you_mesure_trend_in_this_turn + k * Trend_turn(x-1)) / 2
where k is a value between 0 and 1. k is a muffler, the higher the value, the less older values are mitigated.

Instead of just adding values and finding a mean, it's putting a higher weight on the values that are added last. Works well for constantly increasing values.

 

[Moi Magnus]

Maybe just the mean in the last 10 turns is not a good mesure. You could try this:

Trend_turn(x) = (however_you_mesure_trend_in_this_turn + k * Trend_turn(x-1)) / 2
where k is a value between 0 and 1. k is a muffler, the higher the value, the less older values are mitigated.

Instead of just adding values and finding a mean, it's putting a higher weight on the values that are added last. Works well for constantly increasing values.

That's counterproductive. Tourism bonus are not "constantly increasing".

You will have a bonus from Trade Route every ~25 turns, and some additional other bonuses (great musicians,...) in an irregular way.

So putting more weight to the last few turns would lead to even more variation, by overestimating (even more) the per-turn just after a tourism bonus, and underestimating (even more) just before.

 

[Deadstarre]

funny, i was thinking about extending the evaluation time to 20 turns but yeah... maybe that stuff the smart guy from Spain just said...