How bad is the expansion tech penalty?

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Not at all, and all the complaints about Peter not appearing at all prove it. I've had numerous American starts where Russia was researching Printing Press or Replaceable Parts or something ridiculous like that.

That seems fine to me.
The Printing Press I wouldn't think too much of considering many Western Euro civs go without Meditation for a time too.
That sounds like the correct time for them to be teching Replaceable Parts as well.

 

[clark k]

Reducing the penalty percentage to 4% or 5% is the best idea yet IMO. I also like the idea about increased maintenance on foreign core cities

 

[Lone Wolf]

Yeah, I find Russia's overall performance to be fine. Peter not appearing is more of a flavour problem (especially since it doesn't make sense to make Catherine appear in 1700, considering that Peter died in 1725).

And to be fair, the Mississippi Valley will always be mandatory for powergamers. It's just that good.

 

[Jusos2108]

Not at all, and all the complaints about Peter not appearing at all prove it. I've had numerous American starts where Russia was researching Printing Press or Replaceable Parts or something ridiculous like that.

That's not too bad and Russia usually cathes up in 20th century, like it should. Irl Russia was very backwards (overall) in the 19th century.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I find Russia's overall performance to be fine. Peter not appearing is more of a flavour problem (especially since it doesn't make sense to make Catherine appear in 1700, considering that Peter died in 1725).

And to be fair, the Mississippi Valley will always be mandatory for powergamers. It's just that good.

Catherine appears in 1750 now.

But Russia not reaching the Renaissance era by 1700 is a problem regardless of when Catherine comes into play.

And of course people will still settle the golden triangle. They just definitely eat the penalties for it now. I'm aware that it will still be a net gain. Almost sounds as if this change isn't as bad as everyone thinks, right?

That's not too bad and Russia usually cathes up in 20th century, like it should. Irl Russia was very backwards (overall) in the 19th century.

They were backwards in some social and political respects. I wouldn't mind if they lacked stuff like Liberalism or Constitution and so on.

 

[Jusos2108]

But Russia not reaching the Renaissance era by 1700 is a problem regardless of when Catherine comes into play.

And of course people will still settle the golden triangle. They just definitely eat the penalties for it now. I'm aware that it will still be a net gain. Almost sounds as if this change isn't as bad as everyone thinks, right?

There is already a stability penalty for settling non-historical areas; a teching penalty for it just sounds illogical and artificial. It also hugely cripples civs with small historical areas. How would you balance that? Sounds tedious tbh.

They were backwards in some social and political respects. I wouldn't mind if they lacked stuff like Liberalism or Constitution and so on.

That's true, but they were also behind in military technology. Hence they lost their whole Baltic Navy to Japan, which was such an embarrassment at that time that they undertook several reformations on multiple fronts (military, citizens right, etc.). Too little, too late however, and they ended up losing everything to the Bolsheviks.

 

[Leoreth]

There is already a stability penalty for settling non-historical areas; a teching penalty for it just sounds illogical and artificial. It also hugely cripples civs with small historical areas. How would you balance that? Sounds tedious tbh.

It's less illogical and artificial than the current arbitrary penalty, and necessary considering that stability is not that much of an obstacle to the HI.

I'm not concerned with civs with small historical areas. If they were supposed to be successful in controlling the whole world, they would have been given larger historical areas.

I'm more concerned with civs like Japan or Germany which are required to occupy large areas of ahistorical territory by their UHV goals and at the same time expected to be in the tech lead.

 

[SheaferDaDawg]

How about a mix of approaches? We use Leoreth's reduced commerce idea, which results in 80-90% returns on original after 15 cities, and we also ensure so that techs known by three or more civilizations have reduced costs. Thus, if you are the major tech leader with a large empire, it is entirely possible to maintain and advance your position, while backward civs have an easier time catching up. As is, however, the situation is terrible. In a recent game as England in which all colonial powers were very active, the penalty was so crippling that upon Prussia's spawn, there were 15 techs that Spain did not have (that Prussia did).

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

It's less illogical and artificial than the current arbitrary penalty, and necessary considering that stability is not that much of an obstacle to the HI.

It is very much indeed still an obstacle.
Some Domination attempts are marred by respawning civs.
Not every game ends Stable, for a variety of factors I can't control.

I'm not concerned with civs with small historical areas. If they were supposed to be successful in controlling the whole world, they would have been given larger historical areas.

That agency is supposed to be taken away from the HI then?

 

[Leoreth]

We use Leoreth's reduced commerce idea

That's out of the question already, mainly for practicality reasons.

That agency is supposed to be taken away from the HI then?

What do you mean?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

What do you mean?

As in a human player trying to succeed with say, Corea or Maya?

 

[Leoreth]

It's going to be harder. As it should be.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

It's going to be harder. As it should be.

It already is though.

This isn't even taking into account natural tech modifiers and civs that have to endure multiple flips on their cores (Babylon & Phoenicia).

 

[iOnlySignIn]

It already is though.

Korea is one of the easiest civs to win UHV with because AI China will always prioritize Gunpowder (and Military Tradition) over Printing Press.

 

[Leoreth]

TD is talking about Domination though.

Edit: another thing that crossed my mind is instead of factoring ahistorical city locations into the research cost modifier, it could affect city maintenance.

We already have a related concept for this, colony maintenance. It's currently applied to all cities that are on a continent that's not your capital's. I think this is somewhat impractical considering how continents work in RFC. So I could replace that with extra maintenance for cities in ahistorical tiles.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

What if we set limits on a per-civilization basis? Historically large civs get a larger city margin to work with, while smaller ones have a smaller limit.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

TD is talking about Domination though.

Edit: another thing that crossed my mind is instead of factoring ahistorical city locations into the research cost modifier, it could affect city maintenance.

We already have a related concept for this, colony maintenance. It's currently applied to all cities that are on a continent that's not your capital's. I think this is somewhat impractical considering how continents work in RFC. So I could replace that with extra maintenance for cities in ahistorical tiles.

That is a much fairer compromise and I would prefer this over the direct tech penalty.

 

[Leoreth]

What if we set limits on a per-civilization basis? Historically large civs get a larger city margin to work with, while smaller ones have a smaller limit.

I have also thought about basing the threshold for the old per-city penalty on the current empire sizes in the world.

 

[SheaferDaDawg]

That is a much fairer compromise and I would prefer this over the direct tech penalty.

I completely agree. Just, minimize it please. Nothing that would make, say, going on an European conquering spree impractical.

 

[calad]

I completely agree. Just, minimize it please. Nothing that would make, say, going on an European conquering spree impractical.

Sounds good, but then some stability maps must be reworked.