How big is immigration an issue on people's minds (USA and elsewhere)?

[Zardnaar]

Why not?

As far as I can tell, NZ has a similar immigration scheme to Australia where visas are issued based on a point system

Doctors, engineers, similar people deemed to be high value get priority, people with good English skills get priority.

The system exists because people, particularly skilled people, are considered assets, not liabilities. They contribute more than they take, or they ought to.

If your country only takes in seven year olds, obviously they are not going to be contributing much economically for a few more years yet. But if you are taking skilled workers in their prime, there is no excuse for not building hospitals and med schools and schools and everything else that supports this growth. You're bringing in the people who's going to be doing the work for you!

All that costs money. There's ways around it as well eg student visas. Student can work 20 hours but partner can come in as well. Student visa-resudency-citizen back door to Australia cost 35k usd for the international student fees.

Other ways are boys jobs with lofty titles and a language requirement. Others are outright scams. Pay money to get sponsored for job no job on arrival plead to stay. Or they get job managing a liquor store paying the boss rent for dorm accommodation in effect reducing the pay to minimum wage or less.

Kids parents essentially scamming the system.

Checked some numbers. If you think CoL is bad USA needs an extra 26+million, UK 7 million to roughly equal NZ, Australia, Canada proportionally. Or add 50% to your house prices.

 

[Tee Kay]

All that costs money. There's ways around it as well eg student visas. Student can work 20 hours but partner can come in as well. Student visa-resudency-citizen back door to Australia cost 35k usd for the international student fees.

Other ways are boys jobs with lofty titles and a language requirement. Others are outright scams. Pay money to get sponsored for job no job on arrival plead to stay. Or they get job managing a liquor store paying the boss rent for dorm accommodation in effect reducing the pay to minimum wage or less.

Kids parents essentially scamming the system.

Checked some numbers. If you think CoL is bad USA needs an extra 26+million, UK 7 million to roughly equal NZ, Australia, Canada proportionally. Or add 50% to your house prices.

Poor excuse. Immigrants pay taxes. International students essentially subsidise local students.

Stop blaming immigrants for inaction from governments given everything on a platter to build a country with a stable democracy, controlled borders, and enthusiastic new citizens and then deciding to do nothing

 

[Ordnael]

It's exactly because of centrist governments that look the other way that we should place politicians and politics that aim to restrict handout addicted immigrants that never contributed meaningfully (again vat tax for a pastry doesn't count) for the infrastructure they are helping to crumble otherwise blameless natives get the short end of the stick...as always!

 

[Senethro]

It's exactly because of centrist governments that look the other way that we should place politicians and politics that aim to restrict handout addicted immigrants that never contributed meaningfully (again vat tax for a pastry doesn't count) for the infrastructure they are helping to crumble otherwise blameless natives get the short end of the stick...as always!

Is Portugal a net-contributor or recipient from the EU? Where does the logic of punishing the handout addicted start and end?

 

[EnglishEdward]

Limiting handouts is not punishing.

 

[Senethro]

Limiting handouts is not punishing.

In international terms, this is the thinking that people in earthquake zones or famine prone areas have only themselves to blame.

In individual terms, this would be the thinking that removes free public education - or starts by creating multiple tiers of it for good citizens and bad citizens determined by their bank accounts.

For all the newspaper columns making scared noises about China's social credit scheme, we kinda use money the same way.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Your going off sideways trying to raise tangential sidewise examples is
admirable, but nevertheless it is a deviation from the particular point.

The number of old people in the UK is rising faster than its GDP, so handouts
had to be limited. The UK Labour government cancelled the age related
Winter Fuel Allowance I preciously received. I don't regard that as a punishment.

Now if the number of immigrants requesting handouts in Portugal is rising faster than
its GDP, the government there may similarly be constrained to limit such handouts.

Such limitation may not be enjoyable, but it is not punishment.

 

[Senethro]

The number of old people in the UK is rising faster than its GDP, so handouts
had to be limited. The UK Labour government cancelled the age related
Winter Fuel Allowance I preciously received. I don't regard that as a punishment.

The government reneged on an established commitment to compel a particular behaviour - becoming economically inactive too soon. Punishment.

That they framed this in terms of cost and practicality while refusing to raise corporate tax etc shows their priorities. Its also establishing a threat to anyone who would next step out of line.

 

[Zardnaar]

Poor excuse. Immigrants pay taxes. International students essentially subsidise local students.

Stop blaming immigrants for inaction from governments given everything on a platter to build a country with a stable democracy, controlled borders, and enthusiastic new citizens and then deciding to do nothing

One I linked to been here 20+ years. Had work visa until 2004.

Has been paying tax last 3 years.

Before that cash under the table working illegally. Essentially stealing from other tax payers while benefitting from infrastructure and services they didn't pay for.

Welfare state basically involves collectively responsibility to pay for schools, pensions, health etc.

Parents petitioned immigration minister for citizenship. That woukd get their kid into university (government pays 75% of fees) and entitle them to pensions.

They scammed the system for over 20 years. They were trying to scam the legal immigrants who did it legit (25% of the population approx).

 

[EnglishEdward]

The government reneged on an established commitment to compel a particular behaviour - becoming economically inactive too soon. Punishment.

I really don't buy the idea that the Labour party decided to punish old people for voting Leave or for voting Conservative.
The mechanics of the triple lock state pension they promised to honour and the rising proportion of aged claimants meant
that the costs of supporting pensioners was escalating, so other things they hadn't promised to honour got squeezed out.

That they framed this in terms of cost and practicality while refusing to raise corporate tax etc shows their priorities. Its also establishing a threat to anyone who would next step out of line.

Raising corporation tax sounds like a money spinner, but it doesn't work if the corporates just re-headquarter themselves in the
Republic of Ireland. The steady trickle already doing that would likely rise to a flood if they significantly raised corporation tax.

There are a lot of things I don't like about the Labour government and I would have done several things quite differently,
but they have a genuine difficulty in that a denuded industrial sector can only support so much welfare.

I suspect that the long term sick whose numbers have also been rising are likely to find their welfare payments constrained too.

 

[Zardnaar]

I really don't buy the idea that the Labour party decided to punish old people for voting Leave or for voting Conservative.
The mechanics of the triple lock state pension they promised to honour and the rising proportion of aged claimants meant
that the costs of supporting pensioners was escalating, so other things they hadn't promised to honour got squeezed out.



Raising corporation tax sounds like a money spinner, but it doesn't work if the corporates just re-headquarter themselves in the
Republic of Ireland. The steady trickle already doing that would likely rise to a flood if they significantly raised corporation tax.

There are a lot of things I don't like about the Labour government and I would have done several things quite differently,
but they have a genuine difficulty in that a denuded industrial sector can only support so much welfare.

I suspect that the long term sick whose numbers have also been rising are likely to find their welfare payments constrained too.

Paying pensions is gonna be an issue everywhere. It's not a capitalism problem as such as Communism for example would struggle as well (not enough workers relative to old people).

Uncharted territory.

 

[Senethro]

Raising corporation tax sounds like a money spinner, but it doesn't work if the corporates just re-headquarter themselves in the
Republic of Ireland. The steady trickle already doing that would likely rise to a flood if they significantly raised corporation tax.

So what? Why let them hold this threat over us forever? What is the point with a race to the bottom versus other nations? We're not going to win that and shouldn't want to.

There are a lot of things I don't like about the Labour government and I would have done several things quite differently,
but they have a genuine difficulty in that a denuded industrial sector can only support so much welfare.

I suspect that the long term sick whose numbers have also been rising are likely to find their welfare payments constrained too.

All the results of agreeing with and continuing Conservative policies in their times in government since Thatcher.

Its yet another issue where it is steadily getting worse, is at risk of going beyond our control, and various kinds of cowardice are causing policymakers to seek any option that isn't addressing it head on.

 

[EnglishEdward]

And how would you address it head on?

 

[Senethro]

And how would you address it head on?

I'm not going to lie to you and say I have anything like a coherent five year plan, but slowly surrendering to corporate interests until we have no choice to keep surrendering is getting us nowhere.

 

[EnglishEdward]

We have already surrendered, the question is whether we rebel.

 

[Voidwalkin]

the question is whether we rebel.

This would first require an agreement on post-material questions or any rebellion will inevitably get split politically and go nowhere. It may not be possible to rebel, realistically, in consequence.

 

[Ordnael]

I'm not going to lie to you and say I have anything like a coherent five year plan, but slowly surrendering to corporate interests until we have no choice to keep surrendering is getting us nowhere.

Pitchforks and eat the rich will get us nowhere. The rich flee and so does their capital and so do our jobs that sustain all the over abused crumbling infrastructure.

Really can't discern what valid substantive point you were trying to make about my country...yes we are poor, yes we unfortunately live too much on EU cohesion funds, but that used to be even worse, Portugal's deficit still is peanuts compared to Ursula's headaches on Italy or France.

 

[Senethro]

Pitchforks and eat the rich will get us nowhere. The rich flee and so does their capital and so do our jobs that sustain all the over abused crumbling infrastructure.

If they can do this, they will.

Why should we wait for them to strike first?

Its stupid to willingly put your neck in a noose.

 

[Tee Kay]

It's exactly because of centrist governments that look the other way that we should place politicians and politics that aim to restrict handout addicted immigrants that never contributed meaningfully (again vat tax for a pastry doesn't count) for the infrastructure they are helping to crumble otherwise blameless natives get the short end of the stick...as always!

I support this in principle but this never happens.

What always happens is legal immigrants, the hardworking, contributing ones who want to stay and contribute and follow the rules, get [redacted] over by increasingly restrictive and nonsensical rules, the government brings in temporary migrants anyway (because it turns out they still want the labour) who undercut native wages and then try to stay anyway and become a troublesome underclass, ultimately costing more in lost tax revenue, costs to police, costs to deport, costs to businesses, costs to social fabric.

Maybe your country can try to get birth rates up anywhere close to replacement level (one of the Twelve Tasks of Hercules) but then there's a lag of 15-30 years before the new cohort can start contributing to the economy which is 15-30 years of lost competitiveness.

One I linked to been here 20+ years. Had work visa until 2004.

Has been paying tax last 3 years.

Before that cash under the table working illegally. Essentially stealing from other tax payers while benefitting from infrastructure and services they didn't pay for.

Welfare state basically involves collectively responsibility to pay for schools, pensions, health etc.

Parents petitioned immigration minister for citizenship. That woukd get their kid into university (government pays 75% of fees) and entitle them to pensions.

They scammed the system for over 20 years. They were trying to scam the legal immigrants who did it legit (25% of the population approx).

You keep jumping back between one specific case and then making general claims about immigration in general. Make up your mind.

 

[Zardnaar]

I support this in principle but this never happens.

What always happens is legal immigrants, the hardworking, contributing ones who want to stay and contribute and follow the rules, get [redacted] over by increasingly restrictive and nonsensical rules, the government brings in temporary migrants anyway (because it turns out they still want the labour) who undercut native wages and then try to stay anyway and become a troublesome underclass, ultimately costing more in lost tax revenue, costs to police, costs to deport, costs to businesses, costs to social fabric.

Maybe your country can try to get birth rates up anywhere close to replacement level (one of the Twelve Tasks of Hercules) but then there's a lag of 15-30 years before the new cohort can start contributing to the economy which is 15-30 years of lost competitiveness.



You keep jumping back between one specific case and then making general claims about immigration in general. Make up your mind.

Legal fine overstayers/scammers bye bye.