How come Firaxis didn't create an Israely Empire on Civ4???

[Brighteye]

Arabs are an ethnic group not a nation or empire. Please do not confuse the two. The kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a nation but was only recently established by the Saud family in the early 18th century. Before that their was no such thing as an Arab nation, I'll elaborate on this lat[t]er in my post.
...
Bottom line, You must first prove that Israeli's now share no cultural/social traits of the past Israeli's. The severance of political continuity in no way constitutes the demise of cultural/social integrity.
...
my argument is why would Arabia as a civilization be implemented in the game and not Israel?.

Why thank him? he has not made any valid points to the counter argument.

He did; he was continuing my line of argument directly.

I'll just restate what I was saying in my own words:

And that is basically all you have done here. You have restated everything in your previous post disregarding the argument that I have posed.

I restated everything because I didn't find a satisfactory answer, so I tried to rephrase it in case there was some misunderstanding of what I was trying to say.

I am sorry I do not fully understand what you are stating here, my command of the English language is not that great. Can you please rephrase?

And here you say that you don't quite see what it is I'm trying to say, so I was right to attempt to rephrase. This is the main point of the argument: the definition of civilization.
In the Civ games 'civilizations' are not only civilizations as defined by the dictionary ('in a state of being civilized'), but also empires/political powers. A civilization is a political entity as well as a cultural one; the fact that they have introduced culture into the last two versions of the civ series does not change the way that civs are defined.
Israel may have a distinct cultural identity, but the only global impact and importance it has had for most of history is Judaism, which is already in the game as a religion. Israel was never a large empire.

Israelis have remained dedicated to more than just their religion over the last 2,000 years, I can list many cultural traits they have kept if you would like.
Again Political continuity does not define a civilization

If this is your argument, you'll now see how it misses my point; we are defining 'civilization' differently. I have said how political continuity is a part of the game definition and you merely gainsay me, presumably because you missed the importance of this point and assumed that you just needed to correct an error.

From what I have gathered in you previous posts the following are the reasons why you feel Israel should not be implemented in the game:

1) Israel was never large nor powerful.
I have established that their is no requirement for a civilization to be large or powerful to be implemented in the game.
Aztecs, Incans, Mali were never large or powerful. Also babylon and Sumer from civ 3 aswell.

2) Israel now is not the Israel of the past.
Even If were to agree with you, I have established that a civilization does not need to exist now or cease to exist for a long period of time to be implemented in the game.
Many Civilizations that are implemented in the game do not exist any longer.
Also that argument can apply to a number of civilizations, for instance Egypt now is not the ancient Egypt of the past.

3) Logistics. Do not want to clutter one region with too many civs.
Only 2 civilizations are represented in the Mid East.

4) Israel is not a civilization because they had no unique social structure or developed culture, they are a people only identified by their religion.

I have shown this not to be true, jews are an ethnic group derived from the land of Judea, religion alone does not identify the people of Israel. They have had in the past and now a developed social/cultural structure.
Again even if the the people of Israel where identifed by only judaism, this still would not exclude them as a civilization in game terms. I have shown that the identity of the Arabian civilization is entirely a religious one.

number 1 only follows from 3. If a region is lacking in civs then a less important (globally) civ can be chosen. The middle east is not lacking in civs, and therefore the fact that less powerful empires have been chosen is irrelevant to whether Israel should be included. You say that the middle east is lacking, but I think that two civs starting in that area is plenty on the world map.
Number 4 is also a major point. You have said that they have more than their religion, but my point is: how much of an impact have these other cultural structures had on the world? Places like Australia have their own culture, but it doesn't compare to Greece or mesopotamia. The thing that defines the Jews (and the only thing, except for some of the less pleasant acts of modern Israel) for the rest of the world is their religion. How much of the cultural difference between Jews and others is their religion? I'd say almost all of it; that's the impression I get from Jews I know. They are 'fully integrated into society' as the sickening modern phrase would put it, except for the occasional difference which is always due to Judaism, rather than coming from a different society.

 

[Brighteye]

P_B,
Need I remind you that you have continually replied to posts that were not even addressed to you.
Perhaps you are the perpetrator of this "degeneration of debate".

If you and I were having the debate via PM or e-mail then for him to barge in might have been rude, but there's nothing wrong with joining a discussion on the discussions forum.
I'm not going to comment on the rest of it; that would be replying to statements that aren't directed at me. Personally I don't see that he's been particularly offensive; perhaps a bit cutting with his remarks, but if someone did that to me I'd just enjoy destroying his arguments all the more. If I could.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

In truth the snipets of my posts you have so diligently quoted were in response to your antagonistic saracasim. As the saying goes, If you can't handle it don't dish it out.

The point was not my handling it, the point was you being wrong. And even while you defend and say there was no ad hominem, you then tell me if I can't handle it don't dish it out. You're pulling this crap up and down, double-speaking. Arguing a point and nicely sidestepping realistic, logical replies for, yes, pedantic bull.

And you keep saying Jews, but the discussion is about Israel. You can't go running behind the "You're a bigot" defense every time someone realistically tries to discuss Israel.

And don't try and act like I've somehow stormed in now. You've been addressing me this whole time. Cut the crap. Or actually, I'll cut it.

Final words:

Israel is not, and will not ever, be in cIV (probably at least in part for the reasons dilligently listed and re-listed above). E-mail Firaxis, or whoever, and lay out your ridiculous 'argument' before them and see how it flies. You lack even a basic understanding of the elements of what a civilization is, and refuse to address the elements raised.

And that is basically all you have done here. You have restated everything in your previous post disregarding the argument that I have posed.

Yep, exactly. Anywho, peace; I'm out.

Let's hope Palestine gets it's territory back, and gets the Israeli boot of its neck.

 

[Mott1]

As has been mentioned numerous times, "Israel" has contributed practically nothing to the world as a civilization

Really?
Lets take a look at the "practically nothing" Israel has contributed to the world in just the past 45 years. Keep in mind this is just a partial list.


1. The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

2. Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.

3. The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel. Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed, and produced in Israel.

4. The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

5. Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

7. The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

8. According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

9. Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.

10. Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

11. Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.

12. Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin — 109 per 10,000 people — as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

13. In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the second largest number of startup companies after the US (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

14. With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the highest concentration hi-tech companies in the world — apart from the Silicon Valley, US.

15. Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the US.

16. After the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

17. Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

18. On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.

19. Twenty-four percent of Israel's workforce hold university degrees — ranking it third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland — and 12% hold advanced degrees.


20. Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

21. In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia to safety in Israel.


22. When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second elected female leader in modern times.


23. When the US Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day — and saved three victims from the rubble.


24. Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship — and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 — in the world.

25. Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.

26. Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

27. Israel has the world's second highest per capita rate of publishing new books.

28. Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

29. Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

30. In the field of medicine, Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

31. An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in US hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment
mistakes.

32. Israel's Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera
helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.

33. Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

34. Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the US, over 70 in Japan, and fewer than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions, Israel places first in this category as well.

35. A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct — all without damaging surroundings skin or tissue.

36. An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant (in southern California's Mojave desert).

 

[Cam. of Erracht]

Good evening.

I seek merely to venture the opinion that a nation's technological advances do not necessarily entitle the said nation to the claim that they have benefitted the world in any way whatsoever. For example, under National Socialist governance, German science made many breakthroughs in the creation of synthetic oil and rubber.

I must stress that in matters concerning Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty extreme caution must be taken. It is counter-productive to immediately dismiss arguments attempting to erode one's own. Afterall, is that not the foundation of learned debate and discussion?

Yours All.

 

[Mott1]

Quote:-----------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Mott1
Why thank him? he has not made any valid points to the counter argument
------------------------------------------------------------------------
He did; he was continuing my line of argument directly.

No Brighteye, he was parroting your line of argument. A line of argument that is fundamentaly flawed.
Atleast you present your argument in a clear and logical manner.

Quote:-----------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Mott1
I am sorry I do not fully understand what you are stating here, my command of the English language is not that great. Can you please rephrase?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here you say that you don't quite see what it is I'm trying to say, so I was right to attempt to rephrase.

You know very well that I was not refering to your entire post. I only did not fully understand what you were stating in the quote below:

Quote:
The Civ series models its civilizations on entities that were not only united by culture but by a single government. The OED only refers to 'being in a civilized state', but we're dealing with how they're modelled in the game, not with real life.

It really was not all that clear.

This is the main point of the argument: the definition of civilization.
In the Civ games 'civilizations' are not only civilizations as defined by the dictionary ('in a state of being civilized'),

Well, I looked up the definition of civilization in the dictionary and other similar sources and there is nothing about "a state of being civilized".
Regardless I've never used the term civilization in that manner anyway.

A civilization is a political entity as well as a cultural one;also empires/political powers

This seems to be your own personal definition, if not is it a Firaxis definition? If it is please link the source of the above definition.

I have said how political continuity is a part of the game definition and you merely gainsay me, presumably because you missed the importance of this point and assumed that you just needed to correct an error.

Yes you have merely 'said' how political continuity is a part of the game definition, do you have access to some disclosed Firaxis definition that I am not aware of?
Do you have absolute authority of the game definition of civilization?
You have stressed that political continuity is part of the definition of civilization, I countered that it is not because I am using the term civilization as it is defined in the dictionary, encylopedia or any other valid scource. Political continuity in no way defines civilization, I am not making this up, look it yourself.
Maybe this is why we have a misunderstanding.

the fact that they have introduced culture into the last two versions of the civ series does not change the way that civs are defined.

I understand this, but apparently your argument revolves around your version of how civs should be defined.
How about you state your version of the term civilization and we will use your definition of civilization for the remainder of this debate.

Israel may have a distinct cultural identity, but the only global impact and importance it has had for most of history is Judaism, which is already in the game as a religion. Israel was never a large empire.

So now you are stating that a game civilization must have a "global" impact?
Well then we might as well get rid of all ancient civilizations.
Ancient Israel has had just as much impact (if not more) in the known world of that time as any other Civilization in that region. I did not mention modern Israel because of your reluctance to identify both modern and ancient Israel as the same entity.
Your argument can apply to any of the in game civilizations but you are determined to single out Israel.

If a region is lacking in civs then a less important (globally) civ can be chosen.

Again you are making up rules as you go along, do you own a copy of "Firaxis ultimate handbook of rules and terms" by chance?

The middle east is not lacking in civs, and therefore the fact that less powerful empires have been chosen is irrelevant to whether Israel should be included. You say that the middle east is lacking, but I think that two civs starting in that area is plenty on the world map.

It is highly likely that in the expansion another civilization or two will be implemented in the region of the Middle East.
I am curious what would be your choices?

Number 4 is also a major point. You have said that they have more than their religion, but my point is: how much of an impact have these other cultural structures had on the world? Places like Australia have their own culture, but it doesn't compare to Greece or mesopotamia.

Mesopotamian civilizations would include Assaria, Babylonia, Persia and Sumaria.
Can you please state what impact these civilizations have had on the world?

The thing that defines the Jews (and the only thing, except for some of the less pleasant acts of modern Israel)

This statement alone proves that your low opinion of modern Israel dramatically influences your enitre argument.
Don't get me wrong even though I disagree with your view of modern Israel you have every right to express your opinion.
I am only stating that you are coming into this argument with a subjective view and it is unfair to the civilization you oppose.

 

[csa945]

Let's hope Palestine gets it's territory back, and gets the Israeli boot of its neck.

Ummm . . . Palestine never really had any territory. WWI was the first time since the Roman era that anyone called southern Syria "Palestine." After the British took it from the Ottomans, they occupied it for 30 years, when all the surrounding Arab states declared war on Israel. When the war ended, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip were occupied by Jordan and Egypt (no indepence for Palestine, yet), respectively until the Six Day War 19 years later when, in the course of preventing their own destruction, Israel ended up defeating a much larger army and occupying the Palestinian territories.

Israel has been trying to give Palestine autonomy for a while, but now that Palestine has elected a terrorist organization as its leading party in parliament, further advances in the peace process, unfortunately, look unlikely.

 

[Mott1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mott1
P_B,
Need I remind you that you have continually replied to posts that were not even addressed to you.
Perhaps you are the perpetrator of this "degeneration of debate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you and I were having the debate via PM or e-mail then for him to barge in might have been rude, but there's nothing wrong with joining a discussion on the discussions forum.

I agree but you missed my point, If P_B did not agree with the tone of my posts and found them distasteful why reply to them especially if they were not directed to him?

I'm not going to comment on the rest of it; that would be replying to statements that aren't directed at me. Personally I don't see that he's been particularly offensive; perhaps a bit cutting with his remarks, but if someone did that to me I'd just enjoy destroying his arguments all the more. If I could.

Well said.
I have not been offened by any of his posts, in fact exchanging dialogue with B_P has been rather entertaining. Too bad he does not feel the same.

 

[Mott1]

Let's hope Palestine gets it's territory back, and gets the Israeli boot of its neck.

Well, we can certainly see why he does not want Israel implemented in the game.

As I have stated from the beginning Brighteye, when one has a shallow and biased view on a topic it will dramatically effect his line of thought and argument.

 

[Inqvisitor]

Really?
Lets take a look at the "practically nothing" Israel has contributed to the world in just the past 45 years. Keep in mind this is just a partial list.

That was a nice copy-paste but in all honesty I don't think the civilized world would collapse into barbarism if there were no Microsoft or Intel.

Your argument for an Israeli civ being included is basically that Jews are good with money?
You are right that Israel is a very progressive liberal democracy- if you're Jewish. If you're Palestinian or any other race you can expect zero representation in the Knesset. All prime ministers have been Jewish as well...

By Israel I had assumed if anything they would add the ancient kingdom of Israel. If they include the modern Zionist terrorist state, we better expect to see at least Osama, Saddam, Kim-Jong-il and other terrorist regimes included.

 

[pholkhero]

If they include the modern Zionist terrorist state, we better expect to see at least Osama, Saddam, Kim-Jong-il and other terrorist regimes included.

Damn....

the Politics of Israel, circa 20-21st century really have no bearing on this topic, as there really was no Israeli Empire so how can it be included in the game?? The jewish people haven't had a homeland in thousands of years. .. . how is it even possible then, that you would suggest them as an civ choice?? There are a lot of countries and groups of people that have done a whole heck of a lot in the world, but, like Israel, it doesn't mean that there should be a civ for them.

 

[Sharule]

Starting at 1030 BCE Ancient Israel as a whole survived for Aprox. 100 years. The Northern Kingdom of Israel survived for 210 years after that. The Southern Kingdom of Israel(Judah) survived for 345 years after that. Bringing the Autonomous State of Ancient Israel to aprox. 445 years. However, this discounts Israel as a semi Autonomous state. Babylonian Exile ended in 537 BCE. Israel would exist as a semi-autonomous state from 537 BCE to 70 CE, which comes out to 607 years. As a whole, the Israelites occupied Israel for aprox. 1052 years. Impressive, considering that Babylon lasted for only 305 years at max. The Arabian Empire only (arguably) lasted for 635 years, and are also a people you could say are far more defined by a religion(Islam) than any actual Empire.
For the time that Israel was around, they controlled 9,375 Square Miles, an impressive state, considering that A: They were at the strategic Crossroads of Asia, Africa and Europe(The Canaanites were constantly being Invaded and Plundered by all their neighbors, and until Israel no state had lasted long in that area). B: In the Ancient world most States were city based(Sparta, Rome, Yin) If not Completely undeveloped(Japan, Africa, Northern Europe). Most 'Empires' at this time were rather small. Take a look at Ancient Egypt: Here
Looking at Ancient Israel in a modern Paradigm is rather hind-sighted. For their time they forged something very difficult, A viable state making up a civilization, at a time where The Celts were just learning to farm, and the Japanese were making clothes out of bark. The Israelite Empire also created one of the most enduring Cultures in the Western World. Both Israel and Greece are responsible for the foundations of the European world. Israel has also had a large impact on the Arabian world. The Diasporia obviously disrupted the State of Israel, but does that make it different? Not Really. China was ruled by mongols, so did China cease to exist? India ceased to exist under Arabian and British rule, so did their people Cease to be Indian?
Just because a people were exiled from their native land does not make them into 'new' people. The Ancient Israelite blood flows through the Modern Israeli's. Their culture has many similar traits, The use of Hebrew, the Sheckel, Jerusalem, Judaism among others. Id say that the Israelite Empire made the biggest comeback in the history of man, they went from Complete destruction to regional power. With a Diasporia of over 1800 years, most civilizations would become footnotes(the Philistines anyone?), I think the fact that the Israelites did survive in Diasporia from their homeland just makes their case that much stronger. Few Empires could do that, if any in the modern world.

 

[Mott1]

Starting at 1030 BCE Ancient Israel as a whole survived for Aprox. 100 years. The Northern Kingdom of Israel survived for 210 years after that. The Southern Kingdom of Israel(Judah) survived for 345 years after that. Bringing the Autonomous State of Ancient Israel to aprox. 445 years. However, this discounts Israel as a semi Autonomous state. Babylonian Exile ended in 537 BCE. Israel would exist as a semi-autonomous state from 537 BCE to 70 CE, which comes out to 607 years. As a whole, the Israelites occupied Israel for aprox. 1052 years. Impressive, considering that Babylon lasted for only 305 years at max. The Arabian Empire only (arguably) lasted for 635 years, and are also a people you could say are far more defined by a religion(Islam) than any actual Empire.
For the time that Israel was around, they controlled 9,375 Square Miles, an impressive state, considering that A: They were at the strategic Crossroads of Asia, Africa and Europe(The Canaanites were constantly being Invaded and Plundered by all their neighbors, and until Israel no state had lasted long in that area). B: In the Ancient world most States were city based(Sparta, Rome, Yin) If not Completely undeveloped(Japan, Africa, Northern Europe). Most 'Empires' at this time were rather small. Take a look at Ancient Egypt: Here
Looking at Ancient Israel in a modern Paradigm is rather hind-sighted. For their time they forged something very difficult, A viable state making up a civilization, at a time where The Celts were just learning to farm, and the Japanese were making clothes out of bark. The Israelite Empire also created one of the most enduring Cultures in the Western World. Both Israel and Greece are responsible for the foundations of the European world. Israel has also had a large impact on the Arabian world. The Diasporia obviously disrupted the State of Israel, but does that make it different? Not Really. China was ruled by mongols, so did China cease to exist? India ceased to exist under Arabian and British rule, so did their people Cease to be Indian?
Just because a people were exiled from their native land does not make them into 'new' people. The Ancient Israelite blood flows through the Modern Israeli's. Their culture has many similar traits, The use of Hebrew, the Sheckel, Jerusalem, Judaism among others. Id say that the Israelite Empire made the biggest comeback in the history of man, they went from Complete destruction to regional power. With a Diasporia of over 1800 years, most civilizations would become footnotes(the Philistines anyone?), I think the fact that the Israelites did survive in Diasporia from their homeland just makes their case that much stronger. Few Empires could do that, if any in the modern world.

I think that just about sums it all up. Nice post Sharule.

 

[Mott1]

That was a nice copy-paste but in all honesty I don't think the civilized world would collapse into barbarism if there were no Microsoft or Intel.

Well that is not the point now is it? You have stated (dishonestly) that Israel contributed practically nothing to the world. I merely demonstrated that you were wrong.

Your argument for an Israeli civ being included is basically that Jews are good with money?

No. Apparently you have not bothered to read the thread in its entirety.
But like your view of Israel you just assume or adopt the popular opinion rather than research the facts.

You are right that Israel is a very progressive liberal democracy- if you're Jewish. If you're Palestinian or any other race you can expect zero representation in the Knesset. All prime ministers have been Jewish as well...

It seems you also buy into fabricated conspiracy theories and stereotypes.

By Israel I had assumed if anything they would add the ancient kingdom of Israel. If they include the modern Zionist terrorist state, we better expect to see at least Osama, Saddam, Kim-Jong-il and other terrorist regimes included.

For someone who despises PCism you sure fall hook, line and sinker for that mainstream crap.

 

[Cam. of Erracht]

Well that is not the point now is it? You have stated (dishonestly) that Israel contributed practically nothing to the world. I merely demonstrated that were wrong.

(I would reference my previous message.)

No. Apparently you have not bothered to read the thread in its entirety.
But like your view of Israel you just assume or adopt the popular opinion rather than research the facts.




It seems you also buy into fabricated conspiracy theories and stereotypes.

(The same objection could be raised that all American presidents have been white and male and, funnily enough, generally considered American.)


For someone who despises PCism you sure fall hook, line and sinker for that mainstream crap.

(Such language is despicable!)

Oh! As an afterthought, the ancestors of a few acquaintances of mine evicted George Washington's family. Isn't it delicious!

 

[Mott1]

Originally Posted by Mott1
Well that is not the point now is it? You have stated (dishonestly) that Israel contributed practically nothing to the world. I merely demonstrated that were wrong.

(I would reference my previous message.)

Cam good sir, please cut to the chase. You are welcome to say whatever you wish, tell me what truly is on your mind.

Good evening.

I seek merely to venture the opinion that a nation's technological advances do not necessarily entitle the said nation to the claim that they have benefitted the world in any way whatsoever.

Nonsense dear Cam. All technological advances are beneficial to the world regardless of the nations ideology or government. Are you suggesting that it is not possible for a nation with a disagreeable government and ideology to invent a technology that is beneficial to the world?.

For example, under National Socialist governance,
German science made many breakthroughs in the creation of synthetic oil and rubber.

I do not understand your point here, are you implying that since Germany had adopted a National Socialist government that their advent of synthetic oil and rubber is somehow malevolent?

I must stress that in matters concerning Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty extreme caution must be taken.

I am sorry but I'll address this topic like I do with any other, If extreme caution gets in the way of truth, I'll run right over it.

posted by Mott1
For someone who despises PCism you sure fall hook, line and sinker for that mainstream crap.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(such language is despicable!)[/FONT]

So here we are at opposite ends of the spectrum my friend.
I find political correctness to be despicable.

Oh! As an afterthought, the ancestors of a few acquaintances of mine evicted George Washington's family. Isn't it delicious!

You may be saying something important here, but I just can't put my finger on it.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

Ya know what? I would very much like an Israeli civilization. At least then, people/zealots like Mott1 would finally shut up. But even then, I think they still would complain about them being 'underpowered'.

I think Poland should be a civilization. Am I going to rant endlessly with people trying to convince them otherwise? No. They are not company representatives. It either becomes a civ or not, deal with it.

 

[Inqvisitor]

Well that is not the point now is it? You have stated (dishonestly) that Israel contributed practically nothing to the world. I merely demonstrated that you were wrong.

No, as I pointed out, the average citizen was not at all enlightened by the rise of powerful corporations in "Israel," as opposed to say by Greek philosophy or Roman law. Do you think China or Japan were included in the game because that's probably where everything else besides the kosher processor came from in your computer?

No. Apparently you have not bothered to read the thread in its entirety.
But like your view of Israel you just assume or adopt the popular opinion rather than research the facts.

The popular opinion: Jews have the right to create a free Jewish state in the Middle East because of the great crimes of the "Holocaust" and their "prophecies"

Reality: Ashkenazi Jews came to occupied land which they have no claim to, committed genocide against the people who inhabited the land, and declared a Jewish racial apartheid regime

It seems you also buy into fabricated conspiracy theories and stereotypes.

Fabricated? It's just plain true. There has never been a Gentile prime minister nor any Gentile in the Zionist Knesset. The dominant Palestinian communities have zero representation in their own homeland.

For someone who despises PCism you sure fall hook, line and sinker for that mainstream crap.

Mainstream?! Whether someone is politically correct or not in our era is pretty much defined by whether they will go stand in the street and say the word "jew" without thinking "who's gonna be offended?!" The media is 100% Zionist.
Look at all the media circus when Harvard University published a correct analysis that determined "Israel" was at the root of American foreign policy disasters. "Anti-semites must be fired!"

Anyway this is not at all whats up for debate here. The point is, "Israel" is not a civilization or an empire any more than the Afghan taliban was. To put it on the same plain as Roman, English, Greek, German, Chinese, and Russian Empires is absurd.

 

[Sharule]

Inqvisitor,
I would appreciate it if you would keep Anti-semitism out of this topic. I have family that died in the "Holocaust"(with quotations).
Anti-semitism has no place in this topic, or this board.
I could counter you on your biased assertations, but Id rather not justify your slander with a dignified response.

Thank you.

 

[Inqvisitor]

Inqvisitor,
I would appreciate it if you would keep Anti-semitism out of this topic. I have family that died in the "Holocaust"(with quotations).
Anti-semitism has no place in this topic, or this board.
I could counter you on your biased assertations, but Id rather not justify your slander with a dignified response.

Thank you.

The "Holocaust" has zero bearing on why an Israeli civ would be included, so I'm not sure why you chose to play the "anti-semitism" card here, which is irrelevant. Now it is even "anti-semitic" to not support the inclusion of "an Israely Empire on Civ4???"