How do you spend your spare time?

[Synobun]

I'd agree with Lexicus that consent matters here.

Okay. Let's assume it does. How do you get consent from something that doesn't exist?

I feel it's a bit like someone hiding a bomb that's set to go off in an area that will surely be crowded in, say, 150 years. It isn't going to kill anyone who yet exists, but will kill future people. Just like having kids who are destined to experience suffering and death.

Actually it's arguably worse to have kids, since the bomb might not go off, or the area might be empty in the future--but having kids is a guarantee of suffering and death for a person who didn't agree to any of it. If you're going to put someone on a wild roller coaster that can be fun but will definitely hurt and eventually kill them, you really need to get their consent. Since it's impossible to get consent from the unborn or un-conceived, it's probably wrong to have kids.

I don't go around saying this though, because most people are rather emotionally vested in the idea of having kids, whether they're the parents or not.

I mean this with the greatest respect, but your personal misery doesn't inform everyone else's reality. More people are perfectly fine with existing than there are people who aren't, and it's telling that even the people who aren't fine with existing do their best to keep that going (implying that existence isn't the issue but instead the circumstances of their existence).

I've had suicidal ideation for god knows how long. Life is superbly painful. Time is a flat circle and nothing matters. But that is me, and it is not everyone else.

 

[Lexicus]

How do you get consent from something that doesn't exist?

You can't. That's our whole point. You can't get consent and so it is plainly immoral to act as if you have consent when in fact you cannot obtain it.

 

[Phrossack]

Okay. Let's assume it does. How do you get consent from something that doesn't exist?

You can't. That's the issue. You can't get consent for pretty much anything other than first aid from an unconscious person, so you can't act like you have it.

I mean this with the greatest respect, but your personal misery doesn't inform everyone else's reality. More people are perfectly fine with existing than there are people who aren't, and it's telling that even the people who aren't fine with existing do their best to keep that going (implying that existence isn't the issue but instead the circumstances of their existence).

I've had suicidal ideation for god knows how long. Life is superbly painful. Time is a flat circle and nothing matters. But that is me, and it is not everyone else.

I'm not saying most people dislike living, not at all. Only that one should be careful when giving gifts that could end up burdening the recipient for the rest of their life.

 

[Synobun]

You can't. That's our whole point. You can't get consent and so it is plainly immoral to act as if you have consent when in fact you cannot obtain it.

Doesn't sound like much of a point coming from someone who exists.

 

[Lexicus]

Doesn't sound like much of a point coming from someone who exists.

I'm fine with saying that my existence is the result of an immoral act: an act to which I could not consent and yet was done anyway.

 

[Phrossack]

Doesn't sound like much of a point coming from someone who exists.

Do people who are awake have no business telling others that the unconscious can't consent?

 

[Synobun]

I'm fine with saying that my existence is the result of an immoral act: an act to which I could not consent and yet was done anyway.

Do people who are awake have no business telling others that the unconscious can't consent?

Both of you are putting forth the belief that existence as a concept is wholly corrupt and something to be avoided. You can't reproduce because it is immoral. Existence itself is bringing suffering unto others and yourself.

Which isn't much of a belief when the only reason you're capable of saying these things is because you exist and you actively work to perpetuate that existence.

 

[Phrossack]

Both of you are putting forth the belief that existence as a concept is wholly corrupt and something to be avoided. You can't reproduce because it is immoral. Existence itself is bringing suffering unto others and yourself.

Which isn't much of a belief when the only reason you're capable of saying these things is because you exist and you actively work to perpetuate that existence.

It is a belief, and not hypocritical. I didn't choose to be born, and had I known what it involved and been asked, I would've said no. I keep on living partly out of unconscious survival instinct, partly out of a sense of duty to my parents after all they've done to try to make my life better, and partly out of spite for someone else.

Someone who awakes to find himself proverbially holding a wolf by the ears isn't necessarily consenting to holding the wolf; he just doesn't want to get mauled, or hasn't found a safe way to put the creature down yet.

 

[Lexicus]

Both of you are putting forth the belief that existence as a concept is wholly corrupt and something to be avoided. You can't reproduce because it is immoral. Existence itself is bringing suffering unto others and yourself.

Which isn't much of a belief when the only reason you're capable of saying these things is because you exist and you actively work to perpetuate that existence.

I have never once argued that existence is wholly corrupt. What I'm doing is reasoning from premises that I think are mostly unobjectionable (you shouldn't do stuff to people who can't consent; suffering is bad; existence entails suffering).

My view is actually that whether existence is wholly corrupt/bad is for each person to decide on their own. All I can do is note that you cannot consent to being brought into existence. And that therefore, at least to some extent, to procreate is to make that choice for someone.

Honestly, imo the practical implications of this shouldn't be "you can't reproduce because it is immoral" but something more along the lines of "think hard about this because it is a damn weighty issue."

 

[Takhisis]

How did we get from such a bland discussion into a highly specific argument on whether parents should ask their descendants for their forgiveness for their existence?

 

[Phrossack]

How did we get from such a bland discussion into a highly specific argument on whether parents should ask their descendants for their forgiveness for their existence?

Around page 3, @AdamCrock pondered whether the meaning of life might include having children, and the rest is history.

I don't think parents should be expected to ask for forgiveness--I keep my antinatalism to myself around them and don't want them to have any more worries than they already do. I just think that having kids is very morally tricky and worthy of a lot of hard consideration because of the risks and ethics involved.

 

[Takhisis]

While I agree that people should procreate responsibly, I am not sure that that was the intended point of this thread.

i've fallen so low, warning against thread derailments

 

[Lexicus]

That was a practical demonstration of how I spend spare time lol

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I have nothing useful to add but this is a dope conversation.

 

[aelf]

I do a martial art class a few times a week, play games maybe a total of half a day every week and watch TV about the same amount of time. At most a couple of hours reading this forum and hanging out with friends. I also spend my 1 hour+ commute home reading or writing on my phone, and I consider that a precious part of my spare time.

The remaining time is spent with the significant other.

from my experience if you are passionate for literally anything, and have even the slightest degree of eloquency, you can make your passions sound interesting. even if it's something hyperspecific like sub-saharan geopolitics in the late 20th century, or a new farm simulator that just came out. admittedly some things are hard to convey via language, e.g. the feeling you have while reading a really good book, but I think that is mainly due to our constrainments.

In my experience, not all cultures or groups are very open to this. Where I am, showing a lot of interest in something that the other person is not already interested in is a pretty huge turn off. And talking at length about a subject you're knowledgeable about is considered showing off and bad form in social settings. As you can expect, most people here are either shallow or introverts.

- Sometimes I will be doing "next trip" research. Right now I have Vietnam (hoping to fly there in 2 months) in the plans and Kilimanjaro (August 2020)

I've been thinking about Kilimanjaro for a few years as well. Originally wanted to do it this year, but I've been held back by the big difference in the prices I heard from a friend who went in 2014 and what I can find on the internet.

It'll be great to share intel on the planning.

 

[warpus]

I've been thinking about Kilimanjaro for a few years as well. Originally wanted to do it this year, but I've been held back by the big difference in the prices I heard from a friend who went in 2014 and what I can find on the internet.

It'll be great to share intel on the planning.

I need to get back on that! We're going August 2020 and there's like 4-6 people total, and I'm doing all the planning.. so.... that'll start creeping up soon..

The plan is to walk to the Lemosho route, which I like for the following reasons:

- Statistically speaking it will give us the best chance of reaching the summit. It has a very low failure rate for hikers (it acclimatizes you better than the other routes)
- It is a route that starts off in the jungle and takes you through a diverse variety of biomes. It could be the most interesting trail to the top.
- It is not as packed with people as more popular routes

The negatives of this route though:

- The trailhead is a bit out of the way, so it costs a bit more than other routes.
- It takes a bit longer to complete this hike - 8 days. I am looking into booking something for a 10 day total trip, it includes a day at the beginning and one at the end.
- This trail acclimatizes you better, but this means that during the first couple days there are some challenges. You reach a very high altitude rather quickly, and then descend and the rest of the hike becomes more manageable. With what I've experienced hiking at high altitudes in Peru and Nepal this is the way to go though. Once you're acclimatized walking at high altitudes will be much easier. If you do not acclimatize properly the hike could feel a lot more intense, it's why so many people drop out of the "easy" coca-cola route. Not so on the Lemosho route, but you pay the proper price along the way.

I found a company doing this route for $1,900 USD pp. This is considered cheap for this route, and a lot of people pay more on all of the other routes as well. From what I've read you don't want to dip below $1,500 really. Read the reviews of the company and the route, and see what sort of value you're getting for your money. The $1900 includes 2 stays at a hostel, and transportation to/from the trailheads to/from Moche I believe. You have to find your own way to Moche (IIRC).

Other important things I remember

- You can't hike independently, have to do it through a company.
- Make sure the company you go with is properly certified.
- A local company will cost less and will support the local economy.

We are planning on going on a safari after the hike, there's a bunch of options.. You can stay in a tent which is expensive. or you can stay in a hut which is even more expensive. Unfortunately that is all I remember. I think cabins/huts were $300 USD+ a night pp. We're doing the cheapest thing possible for 3 days/nights (and some people in our group might drop out of this due to cost), cause we figure.. when's the next time we're gonna be in the best place in the world (?) for a safari?

Anyway, aside from that the other attraction in Tanzania is Zanzibar. We want to fly there and relax on beautiful beaches for a couple days before flying home. I seem to remember that the trailhead to the Lemosho route is close to an airport from which you can fly to zanzibar. So the thinking is we might do the safari first, then climb kilimnajaro. But it's unclear and I'm going by 6 month old memories here.

There is of course more to do and see in Tanzania than those 3 things, but those are the main activities that tourists seem to end up engaging in.. so it's worth putting it on your radar.

It's also friday night so don't take anything here at face value. grain of salt, etc.

 

[Birdjaguar]

IIRC the great migration of wildebeests and zebras etc. takes place in spring and summer. That might be something to see too.

 

[Squonk]

I spend my free time:

1) Moderator Action: Redacted. Not funny --LM
2) Translating lyrics at lyricstranslate
3) Thinking about my hopeless love to one guy, and crying because of it
4) Playing Civ4 or some other game, but rarely these days. Especially since I always get attacked by crazy Zulu / Aztek / Greek civs
5) Recently I translated my Byzantine-Arab history thesis into English and sent it to an American professor to get his opinion. That was in free time too
6) Eating
7) Watching youtube.

Moderator Action: Remember, this is a family friendly forum. Please act accordingly. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[aelf]

I need to get back on that! We're going August 2020 and there's like 4-6 people total, and I'm doing all the planning.. so.... that'll start creeping up soon..

The plan is to walk to the Lemosho route, which I like for the following reasons:

- Statistically speaking it will give us the best chance of reaching the summit. It has a very low failure rate for hikers (it acclimatizes you better than the other routes)
- It is a route that starts off in the jungle and takes you through a diverse variety of biomes. It could be the most interesting trail to the top.
- It is not as packed with people as more popular routes

The negatives of this route though:

- The trailhead is a bit out of the way, so it costs a bit more than other routes.
- It takes a bit longer to complete this hike - 8 days. I am looking into booking something for a 10 day total trip, it includes a day at the beginning and one at the end.
- This trail acclimatizes you better, but this means that during the first couple days there are some challenges. You reach a very high altitude rather quickly, and then descend and the rest of the hike becomes more manageable. With what I've experienced hiking at high altitudes in Peru and Nepal this is the way to go though. Once you're acclimatized walking at high altitudes will be much easier. If you do not acclimatize properly the hike could feel a lot more intense, it's why so many people drop out of the "easy" coca-cola route. Not so on the Lemosho route, but you pay the proper price along the way.

I found a company doing this route for $1,900 USD pp. This is considered cheap for this route, and a lot of people pay more on all of the other routes as well. From what I've read you don't want to dip below $1,500 really. Read the reviews of the company and the route, and see what sort of value you're getting for your money. The $1900 includes 2 stays at a hostel, and transportation to/from the trailheads to/from Moche I believe. You have to find your own way to Moche (IIRC).

Other important things I remember

- You can't hike independently, have to do it through a company.
- Make sure the company you go with is properly certified.
- A local company will cost less and will support the local economy.

We are planning on going on a safari after the hike, there's a bunch of options.. You can stay in a tent which is expensive. or you can stay in a hut which is even more expensive. Unfortunately that is all I remember. I think cabins/huts were $300 USD+ a night pp. We're doing the cheapest thing possible for 3 days/nights (and some people in our group might drop out of this due to cost), cause we figure.. when's the next time we're gonna be in the best place in the world (?) for a safari?

Anyway, aside from that the other attraction in Tanzania is Zanzibar. We want to fly there and relax on beautiful beaches for a couple days before flying home. I seem to remember that the trailhead to the Lemosho route is close to an airport from which you can fly to zanzibar. So the thinking is we might do the safari first, then climb kilimnajaro. But it's unclear and I'm going by 6 month old memories here.

There is of course more to do and see in Tanzania than those 3 things, but those are the main activities that tourists seem to end up engaging in.. so it's worth putting it on your radar.

It's also friday night so don't take anything here at face value. grain of salt, etc.

I do my research on my work computer and browse CFC OT on my home computer, so I always don't have the info I got on hand. The price I saw, though, was $1900 for 7 days for a group of 4-7. So I'm guessing it must be a different route.

Great info, btw.

 

[warpus]

I do my research on my work computer and browse CFC OT on my home computer, so I always don't have the info I got on hand. The price I saw, though, was $1900 for 7 days for a group of 4-7. So I'm guessing it must be a different route.

Great info, btw.

This chart I made will probably help you further

Spoiler :

7 days could be multiple routes, also depending on if that's just the hike itself or any days added to the beginning or end that are a part of the package

Succ. is success rate of people on this route reaching the top, as reported by the internet. Although now that I look at it again the value for Lemosho seems way lower than what I remember.. hmmm