How in the world do you compete with a non-financial leader?

[futurehermit]

financial is only good if planning spacerace or cultural from the beginning.

otherwise, mutineer is right: production > commerce

how do you compete without financial? simple: you conquer territory.

land is power.

aggressive and charismatic are obviously great in that regard (imperialistic and protective are "ok"). creative is also really good, allowing better city placement early, no need for hammers for stonehenge/obelisk, etc.

plus, the specialist economy is very solid if you know how to run it. so creative, philosophical, industrial all help out there a great deal. my sense is that the original poster rarely runs caste system and pacificism.

once you have a larger empire than everyone else, financial is only icing on the cake, not necessary.

 

[madscientist]

Here are the benefits that every trait other than finnancial cna be used against finnancial (Understand the leaders themselves vary and should be treated accordingly, Mansa Musa is far different from Ragnar). Others suggest war which is always the best route but here are some suggestions that do not require war (sometimes it cannot be avoided). Also the cottage spam approach is a given. these suggestions are for specifically other traits.

1) Organized: Simple, build courthouses (COL early) and lighthouses ASAP. Run the pricier civics (organized religion/vassalage/Beureacracy/caste system). You should be able to keep research at 80-90%, probably 10% more than a finnancial civ assuming equal size empires. War is optional.
2) Philosophical: Early libraries, 2 scientists per city, get great library. Pump out great scientists frequently and early. You can lightbulb techs (quick access to liberalism) or establish academies (long range). Get education ealry and build universities (education is not just a route to liberalism). War should be avoided.
3) Spiritual. Get an early religion (hell get 2), get a shine, get monastaries early, spread the good word. No anarchy saves to teching time in long range. Shoot for 100% science once you get a shrine. try to get other civs to be your religion but NOT the financial civ, they may cloase thier borders. Avoid war.
4) Agressive. OK only one way, sharpen your blades.
5) Charasmatic. Err, see #4.
6) Expansive. Early harbors and graneries PRONTO. Get the compass early (lightbulb if you can), 50% yield on costal cities alot earlier than financial civs can swing things nicely. Get lots of worker out fast and cheaper and cottage spam that's what this vic is for. You should be able to get more cottages faster than a financial civ. War is an option
7) Imperialistic. Most difficult to deal with finnancial in my opinion. It excels is early and constant warfare.
8) Cultural. Not much to do with this except perhaps force some cultural border pressure near the financial civ with cheap libraries/theaters. Switch the free speech once you get liberalism and hopefully steel a few border towns. Still best to just go to war with this trait.
9) Protective. better than first impression. Use one high production city with heroic epic, maybe a great general instructor vassalage/theology and pump out highly protected archery/gunpowder unit for the other cities. Build wall and castles fast. Use all other cities strictly for buildings that promote research, or if nothing to build run scientists. Do not go to war but keep the power graph number up.
10) industrious: Get oracle, and metal casting early. get early forges and mass produce those scientific bonus building faster (run organized religion if you can). Get the great lighthouse and colossus early IF you have a significant number of costal cities. Get the great library. Get the pyramids IF you have stone. The bonus's from you great wonders should offset the financial civ. War is necessary if you fall behind in the wonder race.

Just some trait speific advice. But still cottage spam and warefare are the best

 

[Kennigit]

I'm a fan of CE, but financial is not super important. As for the "early tech" arguement, on high difficulties you won't out-tech Ai's in beginning. You just won't, and don't even try. But, you can pop 1 or 2 techs (a CE can do this easily too) and research specific techs to trade around.

So, early on in either a CE or SE, you want to get an early war. Start the war with axes, spearmen, some chariots and possibly some swords, and the finish them off when you get catapults (often you can win war before this though). Neither economy really would matter for production, they both will work production squares such as hills. Since your cities are only size 4-5, a CE can farm acouple squares to use for slaving and then later convert to cottages.

Also, Ai's can be very stupid. If you can hand on, win one war, and stay close in tech, by the time the top AI's start cranking out space ship parts, you can get acouple spies around. Most people don't play on huge maps, so spies become much more effective as they only have to worry about maybe 4Ai's instead of 6. You can then go win a space race eventually, maybe using acouple spies along the way.

Simply put: Going for space race- not too hard to keep up with a financial AI. Just need to get spies out there, and you can also bribe a stupid AI like Monty to go to war with the financial Ai.

Going for cultural- Just need 3 solid cities, with decent production/commerce, and can crank up culture slider while running artists specialists.

Domination/conquest- Production > commerce, so doesn't matter which economy you run for the most part.

Diplo- Won't really happen anyway, but commerce has nothing to do with diplo victory.

edit- looking at madscientists post above, he has good run down there. Expansive is one the best traits to combat financial AIs, as you can
1. Get out workers fast to chop for production in early war
2. Chop for other stuff (wonders, which I'm not a fan of, or settlers/more workers)
3. Get out early cottages that you can work to mature so that you keep up with weak Ai's and trade your way up
4. Health bonus helps on high difficulties greatly, so you can grow quickly and thus work more cottages/production tiles.

 

[DarkSchneider]

I checked a game of mine, organized would save me around 75 commerce, financial at the same time would give ~100-125 commerce (i didn't bother to count every single square)
This was with 3 low upkeep civics and 2 medium. Add in the courthouse/factory/lighthouse bonus and it catches up with financial. As i said.. underestimated.

This was late game, with infantry in the play and average city size 12-14 (1460 or something AD)

Don't get me wrong, financial is good, especially early on when cottaging a river square gives 3 commerce right off the bat. That coast squares is useful is of course good too. But the game isn't only about cash

The reason i prefer Organized leaders over Financial ones, is the cheap courthouses. You can whip courthouses immediately after end revolt and keep going forever almost. It's a bit harder doing that without Organized trait.

On a sidenote, i feel the best leaders for war is Hannibal and Napoleon cause of the awesome traits. Ragnar is close, but i feel Aggressive is weaker than Charismatic as it is now. (i wont comment on the Romans, Praets are too imba)

Another thing to consider in that example, is that the 100 commerce you gain from Financial is being modified by any libraries, marketplaces, universities, acedemies, etc that you have, while the 75 gold that you save with Organized is not modified by anything. Truth be told, I would like to have a leader like Washington in Vanilla Civ, that had both Financial and Organized, just to see how crazy fast research would go.

 

[madscientist]

An example, I am currently palying as Saladin on Prince Marathon speed Huge map. 10 competitors, 3 being tech maniacs Mansa Musa, Wang Kong, and Hannibal. Founded hinduism in my capital, got the early shrine, built 3 more cities in arid areas. Declared war on Montezuma next to me, wiped him out (one costal city was built on marble) quickly built oracle (forrest chop mostly) took metal working, built colossus (now same commerce on water tiles as a financial civ). Took my army and fought 2 wars against Washington my total land has quadroupled. After taking Washington my research was only at 40% even with the hindi shrine but after building courthouses in all cities, the forbiddan palace in New York, I am at 90% research (got liberalism/economics first). Hannibal and Mansa Musa went to war, then declared peace after Hannibal took a city. At this point I finally went to war with a financial civ (mansa Musa) who had a few week cities on my continant, took the cities and made him a vassal. The game stands now with me having a tremendous tech edge over the other financial civs. My next plan to is destroy the tech behind Germans and last remainign Americans on my continent, and research heavily to scientific method and communism. Ten I will consider if I want to just go to space or build an armada and get a domination win. The other civs I am against are Kublai Kahn/Muhmed II (really my only threat) on a far off continent and the isolationist Tokugawa next to Wang Kong. Just an example on Prince level how I can deal with three rather peaceful teching financial leaders (I have found Hannibal only a war monger when I play him).

 

[Elkad]

Truth be told, I would like to have a leader like Washington in Vanilla Civ, that had both Financial and Organized, just to see how crazy fast research would go.

BTS has it. DariusI of Persia

 

[madscientist]

Washington was my favorite leader in vanilla (although I did play others) and used him the learn the game, he produced my first win!!!! I was really disappointed to see his traits change until I discovered how great a war monger he with Charasmatic and expansive. Not sure I like having fin/org back, I would have preferred to see agg/char, phil/ind, fin/org as the three trait combos NOT assigned as they can overpowered.

 

[Hackapell]

BTS has it. Darius I of Persia

Daruis will PWN with immortals...

 

[DarkSchneider]

Daruis will PWN with immortals...

Good news! although I was already planning on buying BTS. I really do love Civ, it's amazing to see how often the strategies change from version to version. I think Civ 2 is the one I got the best at, although that one was a lot more wonder centric than any of the others. In this one you can do well without building any of them, although a few are nice to have and I build them anyway if I think no one else has started them.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I'm a fan of CE, but financial is not super important. As for the "early tech" arguement, on high difficulties you won't out-tech Ai's in beginning. You just won't, and don't even try. But, you can pop 1 or 2 techs (a CE can do this easily too) and research specific techs to trade around.

I agree its not super important - all traits can succeed and there are some excellent posts on this.

When I mean "early tech" though, I mean super early. The key to financial is maximising your early tech rate and sustaining early war. Before lightbulbing is even an option. Before tech trading is an option. Financial can get you to the point you can lightbulb and tech trade faster than any other trait, EXCEPT Industrious+Stone.

My typical financial gameplan for Monarch/Emperor is pottery first, followed by BW. If I have marble I'll probably detour to Priesthood to snag COL from Oracle and then to Alphabet / Literature for Great Library. Otherwise I'll head for Literature first and then to Construction. Early wars if the opportunity presents.

The aim is construction before Feudalism is in play. The Great Library covers my lightbulbing needs until I get a GP farm established later in an enemy capital. Snagging COL gives me excellent trade bait to pick up techs like Mathematics and Monarchy when it becomes available (I don't want to help AIs go through Monarchy to Feudalism).

Even with this approach I could streamline it further and skip Great Library and COL, but getting cats before AIs have longbows is pretty devastating. It pretty much guarantees you can get the largest land area which is usually good for the win.

In my current game as Ragnar (Monarch), I killed my first target with catapults - and industrious AI who gave me Pyramids, Temple of Artemis, Parthenon and Great Wall (leaving industrious AIs around until construction works wonders - literally). Second target had beserkers hitting them before they even had longbows. Third target is being hit with beserkers and trebs and shortly beserkers will get issued with grenades. Game over.

My main point is that financial is a trait that really helps with early war. And early war is the answer against financial AIs - in fact against any AIs. As well as getting construction early, the other advantage a financial civ has is that new cities can get 3 commerce tiles working fairly easily which helps with maintenance. Even with almost non stop war from construction onwards, my empire has rarely dropped below 40% science and has still been able to lightbulb philosophy and education and have an academy in the capital.

 

[futurehermit]

I go early pottery if I have a few floodplains in my capital. It is nice although I find my empire expands more slowly (harder to get workers/settlers out)

 

[obsolete]

obsolete, what map size do you usually play on? I can see production being all-important on duel and tiny maps, but on a standard map size your economy will crash before you can manage to do anything. Also with the whip production becomes easier to get.

Size is the regular defaults. Economy doesn't crash, though I suppose for newbs who are drawn to cottage spamming, they would find a way to do this. I'm a believer in Farms & Hammers! I never lose a space race except the odd time when Gandhi starts on his own big continent.

You can't rush projects or ship parts with money, but you can make parts in one single turn with 800+ hammers. I usually steal most the wonders on monarch, which is worth much more than that little extra commerce trait.

 

[jafink]

Haha, dont worry I was not questioning your strategy or anything, just wondering if it was effective on medium or large maps. I am surprised to find out that it is. Yes, I do have alot to learn about specialist economy, but I think it is rediculous to call people drawn to the cottage economy newbs. I know for a fact that many skilled players use the cottage economy very effectively.

 

[Harbourboy]

I would say that Financial is the EASIEST to leverage. But that doesn't make it the most powerful, just the most likely one to be successful. If you are non financial then you need to change tactics. If you are up against a financial opponent, then you need to counter him (by trashing his cottages for example).

 

[obsolete]

Haha, dont worry I was not questioning your strategy or anything, just wondering if it was effective on medium or large maps. I am surprised to find out that it is. Yes, I do have alot to learn about specialist economy, but I think it is rediculous to call people drawn to the cottage economy newbs. I know for a fact that many skilled players use the cottage economy very effectively.

Yes, there are some top calibre players who can. But the point is, MOST players who are all cottage freekazoids are rather new and think the game is all about commerce. I don't know what causes this misconception, but I suppose the fact that they can see cottages grow, tends to act like a drug to their thinking, 'See, it grows, this must be the best strategy!'. A lot of people also wrongly conclude that you need $ for research, which isn't true. In fact, most my monarch games I have very little $ going into research, and even in the end stages I have my $ slider set on 0.

People who don't understand this simply don't understand half the game yet, or just don't understand how to manage specialists.

Anyhow, like I said, the more I play this game, the more I realize Hammers & Food is what it's all about. Ohh I don't mind it when the AI makes cottages though. It's great for feeding my armies! The AI makes TOO MANY of them, just like a lot of human players to too.

 

[jackdog]

Ok a little harsh on those of us who do like a bit of cattage spam and don't do too badly but as someone fine on prince but struggling with Monarch am always happy to learn as your strat appears fairly unique having read tons of the threads on here.

1. How exactly do you maximise your production, do you farm spam and then use other improvements on grassland next to rivers etc to get additional production.

2. Does this mean you lightbulb lots of techs as all those farms mean you run lots of specialists as I, perhaps naively, am not sure how you get any techs without using cash to turn into research. What percentage does your research stay at in the earlly early/midd game.

3. What victory condition does your strategy mean you usually try for or doesn't it matter as you have so much production for either army or space race.

4. What leader traits do you like best with this strat.

 

[obsolete]

#1
I will farm spam, but I don't like to chop forests down for the farms, I tend to save those for my +health which means my city grows faster = faster GP farm. Though I'd be adding an extra food by making it into a farm so that is arguable, it is a time issue as well. I save my forests and turn em into sawmills.

#2 NEVER... EVER.... Lightbuib a GP. Never, ever. This goes against my whole philosphy of my GP farming. Also, never... ever use a great prophet to make a holy shrine either. This is another gimmick that a lot of newbs go for, and it's not really great move 99% of the time. I can understand 1% when everyone in the world is sharing one religion and you have 100 cities using that religion, but come on....

#3, On fractal I win domination. On Continents, this is rather impossible (I play quick speed), so I usually backdoor into space race win... and very rare occasion a time victory when everyone is so beat up, we suck. And once in a blue moon, I win diplo but very hard to do with continents!

#4 Spiritual-Industrious. It's been my Ultra combo since Civ III days, though Spiritual-Scientific & Industrial-Scientific used to be big favourites too.

 

[fed1943]

Ah, quick speed; then, you are absolutely right.

But if you try same tactics in Epic or Marathon...

civilization IV is indeed a very rich game.

Best regards,

 

[Dnomal]

Financial is a powerful trait, butI've always thought that Civs become powerful in game not because of wealth, or power, but because of efficency, a tiny empire of 3 cities can compete with oneof fifteen, if the huge empire has expensive civics and no courthouses or welath producing buildings.

Financial civs have an edge, but so does the Human Player, i especially reccommend Fredrick, Organised/Philisophical? Tech Steam-roller if played correctly.

Oh also Charismatic is a greater civic throughout time, since Agressive's Combat I dosen't go over to Cavalry, or Tanks, or Artillery, or Planes. So by the modern era the agressive trait has really work itself out, a it's effect of cheap barracks dosen't matter anymore, and the modern army gains no real bonuses. Wherea Charismatic gives an increase in promos to all units, along with a happiness bonus, and that surely can't be bad...

 

[DarkSchneider]

Financial is a powerful trait, butI've always thought that Civs become powerful in game not because of wealth, or power, but because of efficency, a tiny empire of 3 cities can compete with oneof fifteen, if the huge empire has expensive civics and no courthouses or welath producing buildings.

Financial civs have an edge, but so does the Human Player, i especially reccommend Fredrick, Organised/Philisophical? Tech Steam-roller if played correctly.

Oh also Charismatic is a greater civic throughout time, since Agressive's Combat I dosen't go over to Cavalry, or Tanks, or Artillery, or Planes. So by the modern era the agressive trait has really work itself out, a it's effect of cheap barracks dosen't matter anymore, and the modern army gains no real bonuses. Wherea Charismatic gives an increase in promos to all units, along with a happiness bonus, and that surely can't be bad...

Yeah, I don't think there is any real argument for Agressive over Charismatic. Or for Organized over Financial. In terms of combat bonuses, agressive and charismatic are close, and as the above poster mentioned, Charismatic applies to all units. As for Oragnized vs. financial, they both give you a money boost, Financial just gives you more of a boost. I don't think that the half-price courthouses, lighthouses and factories make up for that, although it certainly makes them closer.