How Many World Shaking Events Have You Lived Throug

r16 said:
another ah yes . So , what will happen if they start teaching theirs in school , suddenly giving up all plans for seperation , like in one second flat ? And the way how there were some who bragged about the way they assisted Ottomans in the cleansing of Turkomans during the 1500s . And the way they always provide the necessary majority to Right Wing Goverments which then go and oppress them and call them Mountain Turks while the initial impetus of feodal lords sending "volunteers" to the seperatists was a share in the ordinary smuggling and drug trade the "liberated zones" would faciliate . As such , what were we supposed to employ , the Canadian Army ? And , indeed , in the days of the Republic , the Army was always more popular , even in the East , as conscription would mean there would be people who would at least try to understand the concerns of ordinary people , instead of the totally corrupt "civilian" agencies .
Click to expand...

That's a problem when the Turks themselves conquered the land.

How you treat the conquered seems to reflect how loyal they are.
 
r16 said:
ı kinda follow the affairs that happen . As New Turkey is the center piece of long running plans and we Turks/Ottomans modernizing/Republic happen to be earlier in experiments so that lran and willing Arab countries can learn from our experiments , your notion that Trump hurt Kurdish aspirations for a Nation State are kind of wrong . New Turkey destroying this country will unhinge this famous Resistance Front or whatever in the Middle East . The very notion that the Republic had failed , with the arrest of coup-plotters and what not is the express reason why the great Arab Awakening happened . That the Kemalist fools would not be able to sabotage the affairs in Syria meant Muslim Brotherhood would be far too powerful . Meaning Hüsnü Mübarek had to go . Tunisia was an accident in the vendor who burned himself and his tribe chest banging for he was slapped by some female official during the altercation when his scale was confiscated . Libya happened because France was unhappy with Americans preparing to steal a French colony and am oddly amused to see nobody in CFC mentioning Sarkozy given a jail term for his Crusade to embezzle Kaddafi money , in both election donations and oil to be stolen from Libya . Algeria was willing to let Kaddafi stay . Egypt would agree but for the thing that Syria would fall because no Kemalists . So , they had to agree . From which they managed to reverse real fast , because New Turkey was a lot of talk . And indeed we saw what this country could do , militarily , against a "former" superpower . Denying us Article V of the NATO treaty is another fixation of the West . Now that whatever we have must be in finite amounts , certainly nothing infinite or anything like that .

so , another soup from which the reader can not make any sense ? lndeed ... Nobody would ever want anyone to believe them either ... but in case of a real need you could do the usual and copy paste them to whatever word processor you use and read , divide or attach in any order you like . lndeed you will find no real evidence that ı ordered like 3000 bikini tops to fly from tank antennas , because this was supposedly how the King Hussein of Jordan was pushed into open war with the PLO in 1970 , which in the end went 180 degrees of the designed plot by making Jordan more secure with less internal divisions and making Egypt and Syria once again the target of lsraeli "expansion" . Which they countered but this time professionally .

and you are wrong ... New Turkey gave territory to Kurds , with 12 little towns and neighbourhoods as the first step as liberated zones . Muslim Brotherhood's hold in liberated Syria to balance the losses . When nobody showed up to conquer Syria in the name of New Turkey and the palace in Ankara still smelled of fresh paint , if you are to delve into the pointless , the liberated zones had to be taken back . Hundreds of troops and policemen were lost , with nothing done by seperatist elites to help the youngsters and losers left to die in the pockets . lSlL ? Had a slave bazzar where they sold women , on the first Black American President's watch , in some place called Telafer ... A Turkoman place arranged as a divider between Kurdish zones during the Ottoman times and Americans during the occupation of lraq had an attempt at ethnic cleansing . New Turkey was not as powerful as it would be just years later . Russia ? Why do you think they are in Syria , despite the dancing they do around us ? Because they know New Turkey and it really fails in anything real ...

and uh , where is this Kurdish territory ? Alaska ? Siberia ? Ah yes , the lands they supposedly conquered from Byzantines and then gifted to nomads from Central Asia ? What's this fixation to create a new Nation State when all other Nation States are bad and must go ?
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Stuff like this should really be told as bedtime stories for both children and adults. It doesn't work as well in written form.
 
turkish conquest followed Roman traditions after learning Statehood in lran , as such it was never worse or better or whatever great powers and stuff did ; and there is nothing automatic that justifies that Kurds are being oppressed . The question remains , if the Nation States are bad , why is it necessary for Kurds to have one , access to Mediterranean and a pipeline included in an era where we will see the end of dominance of hydrocarbon economy ?

and was not surprised by the second comment either . Yeah , it is beyond belief to have a backwards country being central to ongoing global things , so much that when stupid people do not die for brilliant plans , the very smart Europeans end up in trouble . We are not Afghanistan , you know ... Or camel riders or anything , perhaps ?
 
Oh, god. Points:

- Who's saying the Turks should be destroyed? I've been very careful to refer to either Erdogan or Turkish imperialism and oppression, which is not specifically a problem of Turkey, but a problem of imperialism.

- Who's ignoring Sarkozy's corruption? Do you think I'm supporting him, or that I even like him?

- Do you understand the right to govern oneself and how this relates to a nation state? Even so, where did I say in this discussion that nation states are bad?

- When did I say the Kurds had no hope to establish a nation state at this point? Of course they still have hope, they're still a power. They were just abandoned by Trump and switched to Russia as a source for this, and it was in all ways a massive loss.

Like, you're projecting all sorts of things onto me that I have not brought up at all in this discussion. With all your references of Western corruption - which is complete whataboutism by the way, as Turkey is still ruthless towards the Kurdish ethnicity, and talking big about Mubarak or whatever doesn't counteract this fact in the slightest - there's a good bit of paranoia and projection mixed in.

Stop the projection, and stop the whataboutism. You're arguing against things we don't believe, referencing things that have nothing to do with the fact of the matter.

Other thoughts.

Yes, at this point, allowing the Kurds to teach their own language and self-govern could backfire. That it was based on the Roman model has nothing to do with anything, as I don't think anyone you're talking to want Rome to come back (Although what you're saying here is unclear, it seems to be that you think 19th century imperialism was the Roman model, and if that's what you believe - uh, what? No? That's not the case at all). But you reap as you sow - Turkey conquered a people, denied them rights, and then they revolted. Regardless of international influences, it's not a Western conspiracy that Kurds aren't allowed their language in schools. End of story.

This is neither useful or pragmatic for you, by the way. It does not help Erdogan that Turkey is isolating itself against the West unless they can side with the (worse) autocracies of the world (which he is, and that's a bad thing). Or unless they can secure a power grab through Trump (which he did, and that's a bad thing, for the same reasons as before). Like, woe is me, yes, the West has historically been absolutely brutal in their treatment of non-Western areas. The West is still incredibly problematic to this day. But who else are you going to side with? The autocracies that want to emulate what the West used to be?

And no, I don't at all support corrupt Western intervention, infact I am very much against it, but that's neither here nor there in this discussion. Trump's decision is offensive to me not just because he abandoned a population that is being denied self-governance on spurious grounds, but because that under his four years of office, Russia and China have stormed forward on the international stage, specifically because of these and other decisions of his. His behavioral pattern has completely shot the US in the foot in all the wrong ways. It's important to keep alliances in international affairs; otherwise, who would ever make an agreement with you?

I'm Danish, by the way, and we hold Greenland. I only support Greenland as part of Denmark as long as they want to be. At the moment, it's basically directed foreign affairs in exchange for economic support, and honestly, I'd be fine if Denmark had no control over Greenland's foreign affairs while supporting their economy. But ATM, Greenland wants the money, and Greenland has more soft power as long as they're part of the Danish/European bloc, so that's why they majorly support the current situation. As long as Denmark has taken control of that area, we owe that area economic support; this is a major drain on our economy, with little in return, and they're allowed to self-administer and teach their language in their schools. We reap as we sow; we took the land by force, and now we have a responsibility for that land, until that land wants to be independent.

Turkey conquered a people, and denied them self-governance and culture. Then they revolted.

-

This post got longer than I intended. But that's what happen when you try and answer a post that's basically throwing endless spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks, ignoring that a kitchen is on fire.
 
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the kitchen is fine , though others might end up terribly bad . Am not accusing you of anything , projecting nothing , know nothing about whataboutism is - though ı have an impression it involves bringing up stuff to distract attention from things happening right now ...

also ... That ...

well , my mother had a little infection , with me definitely necessary to attend her for a day this week and as a result ı wasn't able to be out in the webcafe and my 960 by 600 pixels tablet does not really cover stuff , so that ı immediately forget what was on . How about me making to the webcafe on Monday , God Willing ?
 
what the guy on the spot is telling you is that the 1920s Crusade openly talked of driving Turks out of Anatolia to whence they came or however the word is spelled and Anglosaxon decision makers try mightily to prevent it happening again . Actually the real interesting stuff about the Azeri Armenian war recently , with everyone talking that we should occupy the Armenian territory between Nahçıvan and Azerbaycan . There was a train line thrown in anyhow .

(uhm , because we will be like killed on location , before driven cattle like into Central Asia , Americans discovered it is badlands with few reliable local allies)

(uhm , also have written a reply , like as promised)
 
r16 said:
the kitchen is fine , though others might end up terribly bad . Am not accusing you of anything , projecting nothing , know nothing about whataboutism is - though ı have an impression it involves bringing up stuff to distract attention from things happening right now ...

also ... That ...

well , my mother had a little infection , with me definitely necessary to attend her for a day this week and as a result ı wasn't able to be out in the webcafe and my 960 by 600 pixels tablet does not really cover stuff , so that ı immediately forget what was on . How about me making to the webcafe on Monday , God Willing ?
Click to expand...

I'm really really sorry about your mom. I hope she gets better. I'll get off your back.

Since you asked, whataboutism is a rhetorical thing some people do. It's not always intentional. But it's a bad defense. (RE: your mom, I'll leave you alone after explaining it. I want to help you out.)

-

You're kind of on point as to what whataboutism is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

"Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument."

So when discussing something, let's say that person 1 says "X is a problem", and person 2 says "What about Y?" If X and Y are causally connected, person 2 is being fair. If X and Y aren't, and Y is tangentially related to person 1's position, person 2 is doing a whataboutism.

So that's quite technical. More concretey, as an example of what whataboutism could look like, taking inspiration from Godwin's law:

German person: "John Doe is an evil person for killing someone."
American person: "Oh, yea? What about Hitler?"

Here the American person tries to defend John Doe (for some reason) by refering to Hitler, who is tangentially related to the German person. Note that this is pure deflection and its only use in conversation is to distract from the fact of the matter that John Doe is a killer. It will only muddle the conversation. Neither the German person or the American person will get out of the conversation having convinced each other, or having gotten smarter. It is irrelevant what Hitler did when the discussion at hand is John Doe, who is unrelated to Hitler, who did kill people, who is unmistakenly villanous (and yes, John Doe is just a character from a movie, Se7en. I have no idea why anyone would defend him here, I picked a movie character to have a less politically loaded example).

-

Basically, when you talk about the Crusades and Sarkozy and stuff, you aren't convincing anyone, talking about elements unrelated to what we're talking about. I'm telling you this not because it's wasting our time, but it's kind of wasting yours. Usually, people will at best get bogged down talking about the Crusade and Sarkozy, and still here they won't actually be convinced of your argument. It's pure deflection.

At worst, people will just walk away from you.

Sometimes it works. But it's rare.

-

I hope your mother gets better. Good luck.
 
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mother is fine , recovering nicely , thanks for the well wishes . Will add stuff into the general reply ı have for Monday .
 
I also wish the Kurds had their own state. I remember during my legal traineeship course I spoke to a guy who was from Iraq and suggested that to him. He reminded me of my ignorance of the Middle East and effectively told me that was a very bad idea. I guess I would get a similar response if I suggested that to a Turkish, Iranian or Syrian person.
 
I would have to do some research to see how many earthquakes have happened since I was born. Hundreds? Maybe over a thousand? Do you count really low-magnitude ones? Could it be in the tens of thousands? I really don't know.

But from the non-literal sense... it depends on what the threshold is. Are the fall of the Berlin Wall and the fall of the Soviet Union two separate events, or is it one "End of the Cold War" event? Does world impact imply the world is shaken - is the GFC (never heard that acronym before) really "shaking", or is it just impactful? 9/11 is arguably qualified, but there's still the question of whether that's biased by a U.S. or western-centric view. How much of an impact did it have in, say, Japan? What about something like Chernobyl? It arguably had a major impact on the adoption of nuclear power, probably more so than Three Mile Island or Fukushima Daiichi, even though the latter turned some whole countries (Germany and Japan, at least) off of nuclear - and on a path to more greenhouse gas emissions. And I agree that the adoption of the Internet pretty much everywhere - first at homes, but then on mobile - qualifies on impact, though the timescale is gradual enough that perhaps it doesn't that way.

The end of the Cold War and Covid-19 seem like the only ones that are shoe-ins in terms of both being impactful enough and a short enough timescale. You could put several of the other ones up for a vote to see if they qualify; ideally there would be some threshold that it must receive at least X% of the vote in every region (continent?) to count. I wouldn't be surprised to see some others pass the threshold, but also wouldn't be shocked if it turns out some of them didn't qualify, perhaps due to having high impact in certain regions, but not in all regions.

-------

On the Kurdish topic, I generally think the Kurds should have their own state, at least in Iraq, if they want it, although local autonomy may be a more realistic and palatable alternative. The U.S. should also generally be supportive of this, given the Kurdish support in Iraq over the past decade. It's obviously a much thornier question in Iran and Turkey, and to some extent Syria. Realistically there is not going to be an independent Kurdish state including Kurdish Iran or Turkey any time soon, and IMO the best strategy for the Iraqi Kurds would to seek local recognition (either autonomy or independence), and not trying to make it a regional issue as that would solidify opposition. It also would likely behoove them to study what has gone wrong for the Palestinians, so as not to make the same mistakes. I read an interesting article on that recently; among the mistakes cited were repeatedly rejecting proposals that would have given Palestine some autonomy and control over their own destiny, but not everything they were seeking, only to ask for that same deal years later when the Palestinian position was weaker. The perfect being the enemy of the good, so to speak. The lesson may be that if an opportunity for long-term, legally enshrined and real autonomy in Iraq comes up, it would be sensible to take advantage of it rather than to insist on independence.

But, I don't see anything that has happened in Kurdistan as world-shattering. Even the Iraq War (2003) is very unlikely to qualify.
 
It's fun to see how everyone categorizes 'world shaking events'. I can think of some that were a cultural shock but didn't have any other tangible effect on a country like the Challenger explosion.
 
Some answers are more joking that media coverage of an event may have made something seem more important at the time than it really was.

9/11 and events after that are already listed quite often, so my list focused more on pre-2000

Some are 'world shaking', some were cultural shocks, some were just media circuses.

Baby Jessica
Challenger explosion-Remember at school the teachers called us into a room to see the news coverage of it. A teacher in another town 15 miles away was an alternate for that flight.*
Remember seeing Oliver North talked about all the time on TV (Iran-contra affair).
Berlin Wall falling/Collapse of USSR
LA riots
Clinton/Lewinsky
OJ trial

As for music:
Rap-for better or worse. Seeing a 60 year old school teacher (who probably doesn't even like rap but is trying to look 'cool' with her students, and I'm not sure there was any or very many students who did listen to rap) trying to get us all to rap with her in 7th grade was one of the corniest thing I've seen in my life. Don't remember the lyrics, other than it tried to get the school name in there.

*After more research it seems the nearby schoolteacher was not the main alternate like I was led to believe. But one of 114 that had tried to get that reserve spot.
 
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