How to deal with former Communist agents

[Riffraff]

Yes, since people don't deserve to be punished for ruining other people's lives...

the question is if you want to rip the country apart for justice' sake.

I've heard that in Eastern Germany, about 5% of the population worked for the secret police. That is just a way to large proportion to lock up.

 

[Phlegmak]

IHT article:

Czechs debate charge against Kundera



So, what's the point of this thread. It's a fact that many people in ex-communist countries cooperated with secret state police. Some willingly, some were forced, some didn't even know. It was a reality of life in communism that the more important position you had, the more likely it was that you would be picked by the secret police to report on your colleagues, subordinates, friends etc. If you refused... well, you could forget about your career. And there were plenty of those who chose to destroy the lives of others rather than to give up on their own dreams. There were hundreds of thousands of these people.

The question is: what should we do with them now? We estabilished institutes which are searching the StB (State Security - the Communist secret police in Czechoslovakia) files for agents and from time to time they find someone famous. Officials in the police and military have to get a security clearance proving they were not communist agents (this is very complicated since the commies destroyed a lot of these files in 1989 when they realized they were about to be ousted). Others do not, so there are still thousands of agents walking among us. The Ministry of Interior launched an internet database of former agents, so you can go through it and look for the names of the people you know.

In Germany, former Nazis were excluded from public life and resented. In ex-Communist countries, matters are more complicated. A lot of communists simply became "democratic" politicians, businessmen etc., they "infiltrated" the new society. In some countries, former secret police people are still in charge (Russia, Belarus), in others they formed an influential underground semi-criminal networks.

So, what do our Western European/American friends think about it? What would you do with these people? Do they deserve forgiveness? Should we degrade them to 2nd class citizens? Should we send them to forced labour camps - a sort of "eye for an eye" punishment?

Give them amnesty. Yes, I know it sounds ugly, but making them 2nd class citizens creates permanent enemies.

 

[bhsup]

the question is if you want to rip the country apart for justice' sake.

I've heard that in Eastern Germany, about 5% of the population worked for the secret police. That is just a way to large proportion to lock up.

Give them amnesty. Yes, I know it sounds ugly, but making them 2nd class citizens creates permanent enemies.

I have to agree with these two. Yes, it is your country and what you all decide to do is your business. But my personal opinion is that the best course would be to give them amnesty and work towards a better tomorrow for all Czechs.

 

[emzie]

Fry the higher-ups, the ones in charge and to whom things were reported. Go after your Quislings. Going after middle management, so to say, isn't going to accomplish much other than filling some sense of personal vengeance. And it does even that at a high cost.

 

[Cato the Elder]

Take legal action against the worst criminals, using the case-by-case principle that Dogbert guy already brought up, give slight offenders amnesty.

Being overly harsh now for small crimes that happened 20+ years ago is beyond stupidity.

 

[Shekwan]

Yes, since people don't deserve to be punished for ruining other people's lives...

You can't possibly lock up every former communist agent. You would tear up the country trying that. Those who were at the top of the communist structure should be blamed and punished if proven guilty but the lower level agents aren't worth the bother.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

T
Our law says that the communist regime itself was illegal and criminal. Therefore everybody who was a part of it is a criminal. Now it's all about finding the real "bastards", the ones who actively made the lives of others miserable.

Retroactive legislation is about the dumbest thing anyone could ever do.

 

[Gigaz]

After all, the Czechs were not communists by choice, but by pressure from Moscow. It was often cooperation or death.
I'd say make sure that the victims get proper help, find some of the worst criminals and let the country find a new start.

 

[GenMarshall]

The real quesion I have is "how to deal with ex-communists who are new capitalists (ie Capitalist Newbies)?".

 

[luiz]

I have to agree with those who said that getting the truth exposed is more important than actually punishing the criminals, in this particular case.

Let the world know the names of all communist agents and their countless crimes, publish it on papers and read it on national TV. But to actually send them to jail is rather complicated from a legal POV, as others have stated they were working within the law. Yeah, there are exemples of people being punished for following the Law - Nazis being the greatest exemple - but I think it opens a bad precedent, and ultimately is not that important.

Reconciliation is the best approach - as long, of course, as it is not a "neutral" reconciliation but one that makes it clear that communism was a great crime that should never be repeated. Like the South Africans did with the apartheid.

 

[Winner]

Take legal action against the worst criminals, using the case-by-case principle that Dogbert guy already brought up, give slight offenders amnesty.

Being overly harsh now for small crimes that happened 20+ years ago is beyond stupidity.

You consider spying on your friends and colleagues a small crime? Do you have any idea how you ended up if the regime decided you were a threat?

 

[Winner]

Retroactive legislation is about the dumbest thing anyone could ever do.

Again, generally - yes. In the case of totalitarian regimes and their servants - no.

 

[luiz]

Again, generally - yes. In the case of totalitarian regimes and their servants - no.

But the problem with communist regimes, as Riffraff noted, is that it corrupted an extremely large segment of society. He mentioned 5% of the entire population in Eastern Germany - in Stalinist Russia there may well have been a larger proportion that at least once made unfounded denounces to the police that resulted in tragedies.

 

[LesCanadiens]

You consider spying on your friends and colleagues a small crime? Do you have any idea how you ended up if the regime decided you were a threat?

Still better off than Gypsies today.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Again, generally - yes. In the case of totalitarian regimes and their servants - no.

I think the time to have made this move was during the change of government when the Eastern Bloc collapsed, not now.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

Depends.

What those people did was terrible in ruining the lifes of other people... quite the despicable act, but at the same time one must consider beyond the actions and injustices of the past.

Has the former agent truly changed his ways? Has he reformed? Would it be correct to ruin his life now? Does he have a familit to care for? What exactly did he do back then and why?

My point is comrade you seem to want to make an arguement from a moral standpoint yet your proposal in itself has the potential of being immoral itself. What happened in the past is terrible, and indeed at the time they should have been punished... But now is not the past, we must live in the present and not sculpt someones image for their past if they have truly reformed... and by reform I don't entirely mean giving up Communism, I've always believed you can be a Communist and moral despite what some may believe.

as it was said earlier by Arwon and Luiz that getting the Truth out is an important start... Getting revenge may sound like the right thing to do but the simple act carried out to get even just brings both parties down to the level of inhuman and is never right.

 

[Mad Man]

I don't want to pry but i want to know wear your coming from? Because it seems that you were hurt in some way by an informant. And what kind of atrocites were commited by Czechia during the cold war?

 

[Annex]

Do what we did with German scientists after WW II- employ their services and take advantage of their expertise!

 

[Andrei_V]

Sounds like hunting "enemies of the people" again to me. Stalin's way to justify GULAGs and mass killings, I mean.

I like the Chilean way to deal with these things better.

 

[Winner]

But the problem with communist regimes, as Riffraff noted, is that it corrupted an extremely large segment of society. He mentioned 5% of the entire population in Eastern Germany - in Stalinist Russia there may well have been a larger proportion that at least once made unfounded denounces to the police that resulted in tragedies.

Uhm, again, I don't want to send all Communist party members into slave labour camps, that would make up for at least 1 million people in former Czechoslovakia alone.

Often you simply had to deal with the commies in order to live at least a sufferable life.

The people I want to punish are those who crossed the line. They not only dealt with the regime, they actively collaborated and spied on other people (who then suffered along with their families) in order to get better position in job, party or other things.

I see no reason why to draw a thick line and pardon these criminals like nothing had ever happened. It's a matter of justice that these people should pay for their crimes. Unfortunately, as I already said, it's too late for that - it should have been done in the early 1990s.