How to Nerf the Shoshone [Brainstorming]

[JibJabberJab]

Nerf the shoshone?, Poland is a lot worse imo, their UA is basically a whole free social policy branch + their map colour looks awesome (this needs some serious nerfing).

 

[Iry]

Shoshone are nicely balanced already; the production cost of a pathfinder will generally put you at a deficit on ruins found compared to a more traditional warrior + scout opening. Choosing your benefit is powerful, but a lucky civilization could get even better results from their extra ruins.

The balance of the Shoshone actually depends upon the size of the map and the number of players. A small map will tend to make them underpowered and find very few ruins. A large or huge map will allow them to find up to a dozen ruins.

It might be a good idea to post what map size you are playing on when you feel the Shoshone are overpowered.

 

[Kiwi Tyrant]

The balance of the Shoshone actually depends upon the size of the map and the number of players. A small map will tend to make them underpowered and find very few ruins. A large or huge map will allow them to find up to a dozen ruins.

It might be a good idea to post what map size you are playing on when you feel the Shoshone are overpowered.

This is exactly the case! This makes their UA and scout UU situational on smaller maps and/or landmasses. But if you can get alot of early ruins, you can get a bit of a slingshot, which makes for a virtually guaranteed solid start everytime.....


*The UA grabs at least 8 extra initial tiles; with 1 or 2 in the 3rd ring. I have had 9 initial tiles with 2 in the 3rd ring a couple of times. The extra 15% defence bonus is the cream on the cake.

*Starting the game with a scout UU is what bursts them out of the gate. Unless playing larger than Standard maps (not islands), I don't build another one. I will usually start the build order with a Monument first. I often pick ruins in this order:

1st Ruin = +20 culture (unlock Tradition opener in first 5 turns of game).

2nd Ruin = free tech (8 turns gained in teching).

3rd Ruin = upgrade to Composite (clear barbs, circle back to defend first worker, nab CS worker etc).

*Palace, Monument + early Tradition = 6 culture/turn (2nd Policy around turn 12. 3rd Policy 9 turns later).

4th Ruin = +20 culture (reduces 3rd Policy by 7 turns; may unlock it by turn 15).

5th Ruin = free tech (usually gives you a 2nd tier one; eg. calender or sailing. Even more turns gained in teching).

6th Ruin =20 faith (could be an instant Pantheon by turn 20, without even a shrine).

I have not found more than 6 ruins on a standard sized map. On average I consistently find 3 or 4. On bigger maps (with the luxury of a 2nd Pathfinder), things could get very interesting for that snowball start! To me, that is where their very early special ability is; a potential 20 turn start with 3 Policies already unlocked, 2 free techs, a Composite bowman ignoring terrain costs, an early Pantheon, and a city with many instant workable tiles to pick from for an optimal start-up! The quick initial Policy unlocks via ruins allows for great flexibility in different situations. For example, you can go Liberty start and have a free Worker out in 15 turns, or get a free Settler out quicker to grab strategic land or block a vital chokepoint (especially when combined with their UA).

So yeah, they are not OP. I would not even call them too powerful. But damn, early on in the most critical time of the whole game, I find they give you a very consistent start up on anything other than small maps or islands.

 

[Falconiano]

This is exactly the case! This makes their UA and scout UU situational on smaller maps and/or landmasses. But if you can get alot of early ruins, you can get a bit of a slingshot, which makes for a virtually guaranteed solid start everytime.....


*The UA grabs at least 8 extra initial tiles; with 1 or 2 in the 3rd ring. I have had 9 initial tiles with 2 in the 3rd ring a couple of times. The extra 15% defence bonus is the cream on the cake.

*Starting the game with a scout UU is what bursts them out of the gate. Unless playing larger than Standard maps (not islands), I don't build another one. I will usually start the build order with a Monument first. I often pick ruins in this order:

1st Ruin = +20 culture (unlock Tradition opener in first 5 turns of game).

2nd Ruin = free tech (8 turns gained in teching).

3rd Ruin = upgrade to Composite (clear barbs, circle back to defend first worker, nab CS worker etc).

*Palace, Monument + early Tradition = 6 culture/turn (2nd Policy around turn 12. 3rd Policy 9 turns later).

4th Ruin = +20 culture (reduces 3rd Policy by 7 turns; may unlock it by turn 15).

5th Ruin = free tech (usually gives you a 2nd tier one; eg. calender or sailing. Even more turns gained in teching).

6th Ruin =20 faith (could be an instant Pantheon by turn 20, without even a shrine).

I have not found more than 6 ruins on a standard sized map. On average I consistently find 3 or 4. On bigger maps (with the luxury of a 2nd Pathfinder), things could get very interesting for that snowball start! To me, that is where their very early special ability is; a potential 20 turn start with 3 Policies already unlocked, 2 free techs, a Composite bowman ignoring terrain costs, an early Pantheon, and a city with many instant workable tiles to pick from for an optimal start-up! The quick initial Policy unlocks via ruins allows for great flexibility in different situations. For example, you can go Liberty start and have a free Worker out in 15 turns, or get a free Settler out quicker to grab strategic land or block a vital chokepoint (especially when combined with their UA).

So yeah, they are not OP. I would not even call them too powerful. But damn, early on in the most critical time of the whole game, I find they give you a very consistent start up on anything other than small maps or islands.

Then Poland jumps in with a full tree of SP more than you and lvl 8000 cavalry and says "pathfind this, lowlife", steals your belowed territory, your religion, your children, and colors the map with their beatiful red.

Seriously if Shoshone is OP lol then Poland is godlike.

 

[Wodan]

If the UU and UA were scaled, back, the Shoshone wouldn't be interesting to play.

• If you're playing them against AI, it's hardly an issue.
• If you're playing against AI one of which is them, then there are plenty of things you can do. A couple games back I had the Shoshone as a neighbor. I posted a couple of units to watch his borders, and nabbed two settlers (the first of which was unescorted!). After that, he GAVE he his 2nd city (on the other side of his capitol) to end the war. He was done at that point until after a while I took him out to absorb his capitol in the middle of my empire, and that was simply housecleaning.
• If you're playing MP, then those things even out. If your group feels the Shoshone are OP, then I daresay you could easily drum up allies against whoever gets them.

 

[Abraxis]

Well, this was my last game with Shohone, 22 civ immortal marathon.

Spoiler :

I abandoned it because I thought it was going to be too easy. That's shaka, Dido, and Atila on my section of the continent. None of them were able to halt my expansion (10 cities). All I would have to do is sit tight and grow with my two capitals and huge swath of land. I am 'friendly' with almost every civ other than Attila and Shaka, despite wiping out Arabia, and crushing Attila and Shaka's armies.

They just seem so strong out of the gate, I realize people think their bonus fades, but it really doesn't. Their bonus is being able to do whatever the hell they want early game with total impunity, then being able to easily defend it for the rest of the game. Consider that most of what makes a difficulty setting difficult is those early bonuses to AI civs. They just begin growing from a larger seed. Shoshone will begin with the largest seed so long as you deliberately push those early advantages in whatever direction you please.

As much as I love them for their diversity, I've stopped playing them because I feel like picking them is synonymous with playing a settler game.

Edit: this was with finding a fairly average 3 goodie huts, 2 weapon upgrades and a pantheon.

 

[JustinianIV]

I really enjoy playing with Shoshone, but I fear that they may indeed be OP.

You could say that they aren't because their UU is mainly good for early game. However the early game does determine the rest of the game.

Also, they are quietly a religious civ due to their pathfinders and ruins. At least they can be if they want.

I would nerf them by only providing thier free-land bonus for their first two cities only (including their capital). It's otherwise way to easy to just take the best of the land simply by settling.

 

[JokerJace]

Of all the Greeks, Chinese, Zulu's, Polish... you really think the Shoshone are OP? They are definitely not! It's useless to have larger borders when you don't have the population to make use of it. Soo there is no downside from having your borders grow at the same speed that your population does. Other benefits from this could be quick land steal. But since America is considered anything but powerful, we can already disqualify that. Also the Pathfinder is not so insanely good. Depending on luck is never good, as we know from Germany and Indonesia. And you need to be lucky to find many ruins. Additionaly, you can also be lucky with random ruin bonuses. So you have to be lucky twice to make the Pathfinder pay off:

1. find a few ruins
2. as another civ you would have to get bad random picks from them

Apart from that any early UU is not so terribly strong due to their quick decrepitness. (see atlatist)
---

I think the only reason someone might consider them OP is because they are VERY noob friendly (just like America - and even more than America) and if someone has little experience with the game he finds things going a lot smoother from the start. But that doesn't justify calling them OP when you look at the bare facts and don't have problems with mundane things like border expansion, because your general playstyle covers that already.

@ Abraxis
Any strategy that begins with going wide quickly usually relies on composite bowmen. Any civ can do this. It depends on starting positions more than additional land in your first few cities. Even the combat bonus is not too relevant, as in the beginning the initial strength on which the percental bonus is applied to is very small and usually results in +1 strength, like all early percental boni. I just finished a game where I had 14 cities by turn 200 with Ethiopia on King. (only 2 conquered) I don't call Ethiopia OP because of that, although it certainly is easier to go wide early with Ethiopia due the guaranteed happiness from religion.

 

[Wodan]

Anecdotal evidence isn't conclusive and often points to correlation rather than causation. For example, Abraxis, looks like you have an extremely favorable mapscript and an ideal start strategically. By that I mean at the end of a large continent with mountain chains that force tactically-narrow wars. So, you had no enemies on 3 sides of you and could advance against a single direction (to the northeast). The AI simply does not do well with even a single mountain or two in the way, let alone chains of them. It'll happily march its units one or two at a time to the slaughter. And, it doesn't do well with tactically positioning archery or artillery units on hilltops to command the limited field of battle.

You would have done well on that map regardless of which civ you were playing.

 

[Hinterlander]

Shoshone are fine the way they are. People need to just start playing higher difficulty levels.

 

[Abraxis]

I"m not so sure anecdotal evidence really counts. For example, Abraxis, looks like you have an extremely favorable mapscript and an ideal start strategically. By that I mean at the end of a large continent with mountain chains that force tactically-narrow wars. So, you had no enemies on 3 sides of you and could advance against a single direction (to the northeast). The AI simply does not do well with even a single mountain or two in the way, let alone chains of them. It'll happily march its units one or two at a time to the slaughter. And, it doesn't do well with tactically positioning archery or artillery units on hilltops to command the limited field of battle.

You would have done well on that map regardless of which civ you were playing.

erm, well, yes. This is why I went with an expansionist start. And this is why Shoshone are good. If I didn't have a strategic advantage over-extending like that, I would have chose a different approach.

This is why they are so good. You can get in game, look around, choose the best course, and develop it very effectively. If you're right next to other civs with no hope of expanding in time, don't. Use those goodie huts for +population or for free techs to go tall.
Lets say you're starting in pretty much the complete opposite situation, in the middle of a desert in the middle of a pangea, surrounded by folks. Use your goodie huts for desert folklore. Get first pick religion on a 22 civ immortal game. Trade for horses if you have to and defend all sides of your empire with cavalry + your defense bonus. Add to that the attack strength on your scouts indirectly buffs your diplomacy, you shouldn't have to defend much early anyhow. So you have first religion radiating out from the center of the map from an unassailable position with good diplomatic relations.

You can push advantages out of any situation, and push them hard. This is their strength.

 

[JokerJace]

erm, well, yes. This is why I went with an expansionist start. And this is why Shoshone are good. If I didn't have a strategic advantage over-extending like that, I would have chose a different approach.

This is why they are so good. You can get in game, look around, choose the best course, and develop it very effectively. If you're right next to other civs with no hope of expanding in time, don't. Use those goodie huts for +population or for free techs to go tall.
Lets say you're starting in pretty much the complete opposite situation, in the middle of a desert in the middle of a pangea, surrounded by folks. Use your goodie huts for desert folklore. Get first pick religion on a 22 civ immortal game. Trade for horses if you have to and defend all sides of your empire with cavalry + your defense bonus. Add to that the attack strength on your scouts indirectly buffs your diplomacy, you shouldn't have to defend much early anyhow. So you have first religion radiating out from the center of the map from an unassailable position with good diplomatic relations.

You can push advantages out of any situation, and push them hard. This is their strength.

This still sounds like most civs could pull it off and nothing in the direction of OP. More importantly, it doesn't disarm the arguments made why they aren't so powerful after all. And if unbiased and adaptable is your thing, I would still vote for Poland.

 

[JustinianIV]

Of all the Greeks, Chinese, Zulu's, Polish... you really think the Shoshone are OP? They are definitely not! It's useless to have larger borders when you don't have the population to make use of it. Soo there is no downside from having your borders grow at the same speed that your population does. Other benefits from this could be quick land steal. But since America is considered anything but powerful, we can already disqualify that. Also the Pathfinder is not so insanely good. Depending on luck is never good, as we know from Germany and Indonesia. And you need to be lucky to find many ruins. Additionaly, you can also be lucky with random ruin bonuses. So you have to be lucky twice to make the Pathfinder pay off: ...

This is so not true. Large boarders as the Shoshone have are very defensive. They stop civs taking land you want either by them settling, or through boarder growth.

In my current game as Shoshone, I was able settle my second city grabbing three diamonds, two jungles and Cerro de Potosi. Cerro was far away from the diamonds and jungles, and if I wasn't able to claim it using my UA, the nearest CS would have likely expanded over it.

In other words, their UA allows you to reserve the best hexes for yourself, preventing others from getting to them.

 

[JokerJace]

This is so not true. Large boarders as the Shoshone have are very defensive. They stop civs taking land you want either by them settling, or through boarder growth.

In my current game as Shoshone, I was able settle my second city grabbing three diamonds, two jungles and Cerro de Potosi. Cerro was far away from the diamonds and jungles, and if I wasn't able to claim it using my UA, the nearest CS would have likely expanded over it.

In other words, their UA allows you to reserve the best hexes for yourself, preventing others from getting to them.

Then I wonder why that part of Americas UA is generally considered useless? This has been discussed a lot in their context and the consesus seems to be, that vital property rights will have to be backed up by military means anyways - or gained by those. As I expected that I also addressed it in my post, did you read the whole thing? The percental combat strength bonus in the early expansion stage of the game results in +1 from the UA.

Haha, I was here first! Now what can you do about it?! HAHA! Best surrender!

 

[Abraxis]

Joker, let's be honest here. You haven't even played the Shoshone.

 

[JokerJace]

Joker, let's be honest here. You haven't even played the Shoshone.

Do we really have to resort to this polemic "I'm out of arguments" kind of crap already? I finished all BNW Civs twice or more. All games on Standard or Large and King or higher. Not Deity though. And even if I wouldn't, my arguments would still be valid and your solely polemic argument is not.

 

[JustinianIV]

Then I wonder why that part of Americas UA is generally considered useless? This has been discussed a lot in their context and the consesus seems to be, that vital property rights will have to be backed up by military means anyways - or gained by those. As I expected that I also addressed it in my post, did you read the whole thing? The percental combat strength bonus in the early expansion stage of the game results in +1 from the UA.

Simple, America's UA involves purchasing tiles. Shoshone get them for free and instantly.

I don't care about some combat strength bonus you speak of. The point is that they get large swaths of land simply by settling. Did you not read what I wrote? With this you can prevent the AI from taking the best tiles.

Haha, I was here first! Now what can you do about it?! HAHA! Best surrender!

Yes, the fact that they were the first to claim the land is HUGE and I'm surprised you can't see that. If you got the land then they will have to DoW you and be successful about it. That or they need to save up all these GG and steal land. Just think about all that is involved. Other than that they have to just accept that you have it. Plus, it is now much harder for the AI to sneak attack you because your boarders are so far away from your city and units.

And if the human is controlling the Shoshone, we all know that the AI is terrible at war. Usually early wars against the human result in the human befitting. This is exactly what has happened to me in my current immortal Shoshone game. Also, it's not like this is their only advantage. They also have another killer feature, their UU. It all adds up to a bit too OP.

 

[JokerJace]

Simple, America's UA involves purchasing tiles. Shoshone get them for free and instantly.

I don't care about some combat strength bonus you speak of. The point is that they get large swaths of land simply by settling. Did you not read what I wrote? With this you can prevent the AI from taking the best tiles.

Yes, the fact that they were the first to claim the land is HUGE and I'm surprised you can't see that. If you got the land then they will have to DoW you and be successful about it. That or they need to save up all these GG and steal land. Just think about all that is involved. Other than that they have to just accept that you have it.

And if the human is controlling the Shoshone, we all know that the AI is terrible at war. Usually early wars against the human result in the human befitting. This is exactly what has happened to me in my current immortal Shoshone game.

I never said it is not an advantage to grab a vital position first against an equal opponent. But additional land upon that grab??!? Maybe we play a different game though, because it happens very rarely that I have a whole lot of contested border situations that result in a settlement race in which additional land also gives me a vital edge. And all this while war is no topic at that very moment AND I don't have the spare money to buy the SO vital tiles that will be grabed away from me in an instant.

If you really think they are OP I challange you to a duel map and I play as Poland, you play as Shoshone. PM me if you are interested.

They also have another killer feature, their UU. It all adds up to a bit too OP.

The Pathfinder is profoundly overestimated. It sounds good on the paper, but don't forget that he gets obsolete in an instant and you need to be lucky twice to make him pay off. Other Civs could get the exact same bonuses AND you have to get a few ruins in the first place. (which isn't guaranteed at all, unless you tune the map settings to your best liking)

With units like the Longbowmen, Cho-Ku-No and abilites like Polands or Greeces... I will never understand how Shoshone can be considered OP. I guess it's this typical new = OP overreaction.

 

[BroOfTheSun]

Easy solution. Don't play huge maps with few civs (even the standard number of AI on Huge maps is way too low), and huge amounts of land that no one will inhabit. It leaves all those goody huts just for you to abuse with the Shoshone.

 

[MerchantCo]

They have already nerfed the Shoshone.

You can't get Settlers/Workers from ruins anymore.